Green Prince Cedar of Lebanon Cascade

grouper52

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I was working on this guy a bit the other day, refining the foliage, which seems to be in an attractive state this time of year, so I snapped a photo. They only grow about 1/4" a year, which makes them a bit of a challenge, but the effort can certainly pay off.

It's a rather traditional tree for me, but I like it. The pot is about 8" tall. The first photo is the way it looked about four years ago when I got it from a regular nursery and first potted it up. Enjoy.
 

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irene_b

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I like that one Will..Has such a cool lush look to it.
Irene
 

grouper52

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Nice one grouper! Is it a graft?

Bob.
Hi Bob. No, it's not a graft. The fellow who developed this cultivar many years ago lives up north of Seattle in Mount Vernon, so many local nurseries have fairly old trees grown from cuttings. They grow so very slow that they are just now, apparently, getting to decent size for us hobbyists. I find them occasionally at non-bonsai nurseries, but seldom with the sort of potential that interests me. I've never seen one grafted - my instinct tells me the graft scar would be bizarre looking given the extreme variation in growth rate between the species and the Green Prince.

Will
 

october

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Hello grouper52. Another nice tree.... You have posted some nice trees recently... This is indicative of something that I have said for along time.....Some people love tradition, others rebel against it.. I have believed for a long time that that it is not necessarilly about either. It is all about what the tree should become. If you listen to the tree, you will usually end up happy with the end result...

Basically, in my opinion, forget that there are sides for tradition and against. Just concentrate on each tree. I would like to add an inportant side note... This theory can only be put into practice after one has experience and is comfortable with the art of bonsai.... You cannot decide what it right for a tree without this experience...It's like hearing about people that are brand new to the art and already rebelling against tradition and going their own way.. How can you rebel against something that you don't even know.

Keep posting your work. I am really enjoying seeing these happy trees.

Rob
 

Vance Wood

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I like what you have done developing secondary growth and initial styling. I cannot see the trunk or base but I suspect that this is going to be a problem due to the slowness of growth.
 

mapleman77

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I love the peaceful feeling this tree omits. I've been looking for a Green Prince and this makes me want one even more!
 

grouper52

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Hello grouper52. Another nice tree.... You have posted some nice trees recently... This is indicative of something that I have said for along time.....Some people love tradition, others rebel against it.. I have believed for a long time that that it is not necessarilly about either. It is all about what the tree should become. If you listen to the tree, you will usually end up happy with the end result...

Basically, in my opinion, forget that there are sides for tradition and against. Just concentrate on each tree. I would like to add an inportant side note... This theory can only be put into practice after one has experience and is comfortable with the art of bonsai.... You cannot decide what it right for a tree without this experience...It's like hearing about people that are brand new to the art and already rebelling against tradition and going their own way.. How can you rebel against something that you don't even know.
Rob
As you might suspect, I agree entirely. Thanks.
 

grouper52

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I like what you have done developing secondary growth and initial styling. I cannot see the trunk or base but I suspect that this is going to be a problem due to the slowness of growth.
If it's a problem, it's one that will be with me the rest of my days, and the the rest of the next owner's days as well, most likely. :) My strategy for addressing this problem? Not seeing it as a problem: enjoying the tree for what it is, not what it's not. Not much else I can do. :D
 

Vance Wood

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If it's a problem, it's one that will be with me the rest of my days, and the the rest of the next owner's days as well, most likely. :) My strategy for addressing this problem? Not seeing it as a problem: enjoying the tree for what it is, not what it's not. Not much else I can do. :D
I didn't mean to be overly critical, just curious about it and whether you had any ideas or ways to address it. The rest of the tree is so nice and well done it was just a question I thought you might have some thoughts about.
 

pine queen

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I didn't mean to be overly critical, just curious about it and whether you had any ideas or ways to address it. The rest of the tree is so nice and well done it was just a question I thought you might have some thoughts about.
So why do you open your mouth?
 

rockm

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"So why do you open your mouth?"

Because it's a valid question...Sheesh.

I like the tree, but the nebari is hidden, which kind of weakens the image for me. A bonsai's image begins with the nebari. It's about 80% of a given tree. It anchors the tree to the ground visually and immediately establishes character--since it is the oldest part of the plant it usually has most of the character.

Hiding it not only de-stabilizes the image a bit, but it subtracts a large portion of what establishes the tree's character...

I understand this this isn't going to change with this tree, but getting nasty about a valid question is well, just nasty...
 

Vance Wood

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"So why do you open your mouth?"

Because it's a valid question...Sheesh.

I like the tree, but the nebari is hidden, which kind of weakens the image for me. A bonsai's image begins with the nebari. It's about 80% of a given tree. It anchors the tree to the ground visually and immediately establishes character--since it is the oldest part of the plant it usually has most of the character.

Hiding it not only de-stabilizes the image a bit, but it subtracts a large portion of what establishes the tree's character...

I understand this this isn't going to change with this tree, but getting nasty about a valid question is well, just nasty...
It's not bad enough that I tend to put my own foot in my mouth it seems now that others want to see if theirs will fit in there as well. Thanks for the support Mark, I believed it to be a valid question becasue if it were my tree I would have been obsessing about it as well.
 

grouper52

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Because I can and thankfully I do not have to answer to you, who ever you are.
Well I for one, took no offense at the question, Vance - it's a valid one. Hence my smilies. I challenge anyone to find a Green Prince with stunning or even decent nebari or base. The cultivar's been around forty years, grows about 1/4" a year, and none of the ones I've seen were planted over tiles or anything. Cedars don't often create the best of bases anyway even in the species.

This one, as the first photo shows, is essentially a stick in a pot. It will always be a stick in a pot. But it has stunning foliage. My intent was to create a damn fine looking stick in a pot, and I think I have so far. If others have or can do better with this cultivar, I'd love to see the results, but I'm certainly not angry for your question, which was not critical in my mind.

There is an interesting little exposed root base that has developed and can perhaps be developed more, making it a bit less of a SIAP - I'll try to get a photo this evening for those who've just gotta see something that fits the rules and expectations. :) The photo will also show the nice scar that a squirrel chewed into the bark - that's probably a value-added feature on this otherwise plain-trunked tree as well!. :D

Will
 

rockm

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Will,

I have no problem with this tree. It's nice work on difficult material. I've worked with Deodar cedar and they are similarly "nebari challenged." :D
 

ghues

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Will....not meaning to derail your post but in regards to us rookies and our learning’s……I do have a question on Rockm’s quote;
"I like the tree, but the nebari is hidden, which kind of weakens the image for me. A bonsai's image begins with the nebari. It's about 80% of a given tree. It anchors the tree to the ground visually and immediately establishes character--since it is the oldest part of the plant it usually has most of the character".
My query is on the importance of the nebari.....
I understand and follow the logic that a powerful nebari will set off any tree but is it always necessary?
From looking to mother nature around these parts.......for every ancient tree that has a wonderful root system there are a 1000 that don't have one. Some of this latter group is just as powerful looking as they tower up from the ground with only a hint of hidden roots....reaching for the sky and dominating the forest canopy some 50-60 meters about the forest floor.
Just eager to learn more.
Cheers G.
 

rockm

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"From looking to mother nature around these parts.......for every ancient tree that has a wonderful root system there are a 1000 that don't have one. Some of this latter group is just as powerful looking as they tower up from the ground with only a hint of hidden roots....reaching for the sky and dominating the forest canopy some 50-60 meters about the forest floor."

Nebari IS the tree .. OK, well it's not all of it, but it is a pretty substantial part of it.:D

Bonsai is all about the first third of the tree's trunk--which the term nebari covers. Nebari is NOT just the roots. It is roughly how the tree's trunk grips the ground and emerges from it. That core is the plant's heart and soul; The seat of its personality; Its foundation. It's the frame from which all the remaining parts hang. It does alot more than accent the rest of the tree.

The top of a bonsai is ever changing because branches get too think, die off, etc. They are replaced rearranged, regrown, etc. with very little trouble. Not so with the nebari and trunk.

"Hidden" roots on a bonsai are like tits on a bull. They're useless--if they're even present. A tree WITH a beautiful set of roots and accompanying nebari IS ALWAYS more entertaining visually than one without. Why follow what the other 1,000 unremarkable trees are doing. The exceptional trees are the most beautiful...

Here's a test. Find a world class bonsai. What draws you into the composition at first glance? What makes those plants "special" to the eye? Is it the foliage? the limbs, the leaves? Ninety nine percent of the time, I'd bet it's the trunk...
 
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Vance Wood

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The first thing about a tree you are likely to notice if it is a conifer is the trunk, even if you drive into it with your car or walk into it because you were starring at the branches. A bonsai is telling a story, the story starts with the trunk; the limbs and branches play counterpoint to that story giving it credence or raising questions.

In the case of this tree, and here again I don't want to sound critical because the work that can be done has been done very well, the branches as styled reflect the effects of nature time and the elements on an old tree while the trunk at present looks young and juvenile. It usually does not happen that way. You can get away with a very old looking trunk with very young looking growth, what Robert Steven calls the transitional tree, but the other way around defies logic, and a bonsai must tell a logical story. I don't say this to be critical but some have wished to be educated and enlightened.

For the benefit of those who complain about there not being enough education material on the forum you have witnessed why. Someone takes the time to point out something useful and some skull full of mush jumps up and complains that the comments were out of line. As to Grouper52; I think his skills are evident in what has been done to this piece of material and deserves credit for sticking with the post in a positive way when someone, either on purpose or out of ignorance, started it sliding down into a flame war.
 
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