Ground Layering a deshojo

Drew

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So I was about to repot this deshojo I had but thought it might be best to ground layer it instead this season, what do you guys think? I’ve airlayered this tree before and it rooted nicely but then failed for some reason so I’m a bit hesitant!
FF342671-78B5-4D62-B9A2-605032202DDC.jpeg3515B7AC-C115-40C5-80D7-AFB778201DFC.jpeg2E2019C5-A881-4473-A963-B83DD387DD8F.jpeg5FF40932-B1C9-4171-B122-3C1B10696962.jpegC290A6BF-88CA-4929-95A4-DD6467767FB5.jpeg
 

Drew

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Some closer pics
 

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0soyoung

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The nebari is not so bad, IMHO. I think it very correctable by simply pruning back heavy roots with repottings.

AND, I think it will help a lot to flatten that root pad so that those surface roots are covered and below the lip of the pot. This pot looks to be plenty deep, so maybe even sit it directly on the bottom of the pot with no substrate under it.
 

Drew

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i was going to take cuttings and attach root grafts over the next few years, I just thought I might get a better result faster by round layering... I could repot it lower this year like you said and see what happens? See if the planned air-layers take this year to get a better if they will survive.
 

coh

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At what level are you planning to do the ground layer?
 

Drew

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Half way up the two major roots, red lines:
63A1DD40-9F57-4C0C-AA53-CD4E6EFD7EE4.jpeg7DE78225-099F-4318-9E18-DDFC2A067618.jpeg97FADE13-DC20-40B2-933D-2E26AA286EF6.jpeg
 
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Paulpash

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I tried a different variant. I repotted today and it worked very well. The downside is that it it's out of its bonsai pot for several years.

Plant your Acer at the very bottom of a colander or pond basket with no substrate underneath. We want to make growing down undesirable for roots. I used a colander that had slightly larger holes than a pond basket for a few quid off Amazon. Next chop up some sphagnum so it's in small pieces and pack it tightly round the area you want roots. I used a chopstick to drive it between existing roots. I then took a double sheet of green shade mesh and draped it over the top to stop the top dressing drying out. Place organic cakes close to the trunk under the mesh.

You've now created a much more desirable root zone higher up. It will colonize this area instead of going down for moisture / nutrients. You don't have to cut - just make sure the sphagnum is always moist.

Take it out after the first year and work the old root system only, leave everything up top in a desirable location. The aim is to further weaken the old roots and this will make the higher root system stronger in year 2.

You can do this for as long as you are patient enough not to want to put it back in its bonsai pot, gradually nurturing the higher root system. I used one branch as a sacrifice - more leaf area = greater ability (and need) for additional roots. Don't know if you can do the same without messing up your branch system?

After 2 seasons I had a pretty flat root system but I didn't pull any punches whacking back the old roots. You may have to be more patient depending upon the response.

Good luck mate - you have some really good trees and I enjoy the blog.
 
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coh

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What's up with the blog? I get:

Warning! Domain mapping upgrade for this domain not found. Please log in and go to the Domains Upgrades page of your blog to use this domain.
b.gif


When I try to access it.
 

cmeg1

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Can you learn about carving for the understock instead,make some deciduous hollows?
I have never carved.
Branching looks pretty awesome.
 

Drew

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What's up with the blog? I get:

Warning! Domain mapping upgrade for this domain not found. Please log in and go to the Domains Upgrades page of your blog to use this domain.
b.gif


When I try to access it.

That’s because I ran out of free photo memory on the blog and they wanted to start charging me monthly so I stopped posting a few years ago, and stopped paying for the domain name. To access my old content the web address is www.bindibonsai.wordpress.com now. I’ll update my signature now.
 

Drew

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I tried a different variant. I repotted today and it worked very well. The downside is that it it's out of its bonsai pot for several years.

Plant your Acer at the very bottom of a colander or pond basket with no substrate underneath. We want to make growing down undesirable for roots. I used a colander that had slightly larger holes than a pond basket for a few quid off Amazon. Next chop up some sphagnum so it's in small pieces and pack it tightly round the area you want roots. I used a chopstick to drive it between existing roots. I then took a double sheet of green shade mesh and draped it over the top to stop the top dressing drying out. Place organic cakes close to the trunk under the mesh.

You've now created a much more desirable root zone higher up. It will colonize this area instead of going down for moisture / nutrients. You don't have to cut - just make sure the sphagnum is always moist.

Take it out after the first year and work the old root system only, leave everything up top in a desirable location. The aim is to further weaken the old roots and this will make the higher root system stronger in year 2.

You can do this for as long as you are patient enough not to want to put it back in its bonsai pot, gradually nurturing the higher root system. I used one branch as a sacrifice - more leaf area = greater ability (and need) for additional roots. Don't know if you can do the same without messing up your branch system?

After 2 seasons I had a pretty flat root system but I didn't pull any punches whacking back the old roots. You may have to be more patient depending upon the response.

Good luck mate - you have some really good trees and I enjoy the blog.

Thanks for the detailed info Paul I might just give that a go!
I’ve also thought about aproach grafting some existing longer roots higher up the trunk to where I want them (I read about it on the bonsai4me website), have you ever tried this method? Do the roots thicken enough to fuse properly? I might try one on the back if the tree and see what happens when I put it the the basket.
 

Drew

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How and where did it fail?
I airlayered it when I first purchased it

2nd March 2014:
1C62DF79-2765-4EA2-961F-1A22952DFD7C.jpeg

Did the airlayer April 2014, then took it off in June 2014. It rooted well but the leaves the first year I had it went from bright pink to a weird green colour, it might be a reason the layer failed maybe? Not too sure?

181C116B-07B6-4543-A9E3-1E5D33681BC5.jpeg

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C2952813-7464-4C95-A292-5B9A05A79896.jpeg

9569E8DB-5F7D-4693-9D1D-9FB540927C56.jpeg
 

Drew

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The following year it had a nice deep normal green 28th July 2015:
A0221745-A569-4B5B-8AB3-F48E6B4F946F.jpeg
 

Paulpash

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Thanks for the detailed info Paul I might just give that a go!
I’ve also thought about aproach grafting some existing longer roots higher up the trunk to where I want them (I read about it on the bonsai4me website), have you ever tried this method? Do the roots thicken enough to fuse properly? I might try one on the back if the tree and see what happens when I put it the the basket.

I've never tried root grafting but I've had success with grafting Acer Palmatum seedlings. Like yourself I'd be doubtful if they'd thicken enough and it would be tough to check progress.
 

Drew

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So the tree roots were too wide for the marge pond baskets I had and a box I had lying around so had to put it back into it bonsai container, I potted it a little differently than normal to try and get the same effect as you suggested. I wired it straight to the bottom of the pot and added 1-2cm size pumice, then back filled air pockets with 3-4mm pumice, then a thin layer of bonsai soil, then added the collar, back filled with akadama then Jamed spahgnum moss between the trunk and soil then added 1-2mm ackadama on top and have since added a layer of moss on top of that within the collar to keep it nice and moist. Cross your fingers!
33304AD5-AE27-43E8-BC75-5AA7F1F70092.jpeg740F0C39-BA73-46DD-8E3D-C4D8366BC869.jpegFF772346-ED08-41A2-BE54-AB3594C047CF.jpeg00749B4D-2AB2-41D5-8220-57ACFB410FFD.jpeg8E4F7510-0719-4FDB-90B4-B2D9491B9090.jpeg
 
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Drew

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Are you expecting to have roots come out of the bark on its own without cutting the bark? If that is the case, you shouldn't expect to have roots all around the trunk. Maybe one or two appear here and there. I hope it works for you.

Yes I'm hoping something like that, I thought I would try @Paulpash suggestion below to see if it will work on this tree at all... I will take a few air layers off it this season also and if I dont get any roots at all using pauls method then next year or the year after I'll ground layer it or root graft it the traditional way.


I tried a different variant. I repotted today and it worked very well. The downside is that it it's out of its bonsai pot for several years.

Plant your Acer at the very bottom of a colander or pond basket with no substrate underneath. We want to make growing down undesirable for roots. I used a colander that had slightly larger holes than a pond basket for a few quid off Amazon. Next chop up some sphagnum so it's in small pieces and pack it tightly round the area you want roots. I used a chopstick to drive it between existing roots. I then took a double sheet of green shade mesh and draped it over the top to stop the top dressing drying out. Place organic cakes close to the trunk under the mesh.

You've now created a much more desirable root zone higher up. It will colonize this area instead of going down for moisture / nutrients. You don't have to cut - just make sure the sphagnum is always moist.

Take it out after the first year and work the old root system only, leave everything up top in a desirable location. The aim is to further weaken the old roots and this will make the higher root system stronger in year 2.

You can do this for as long as you are patient enough not to want to put it back in its bonsai pot, gradually nurturing the higher root system. I used one branch as a sacrifice - more leaf area = greater ability (and need) for additional roots. Don't know if you can do the same without messing up your branch system?

After 2 seasons I had a pretty flat root system but I didn't pull any punches whacking back the old roots. You may have to be more patient depending upon the response.

Good luck mate - you have some really good trees and I enjoy the blog.
 
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Drew

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Update: I had a go at the method @Paulpash suggested earlier on in the thread and here is what happened in the two years since for this tree.... I got one root from the trunk and a few more roots grew straight up from the tops of the bigger roots that were unusable.

The root from the trunk:
IMG_7074.jpg

The rest of the repot:

IMG_7077.jpg
IMG_7078.jpg

IMG_7079.jpg

IMG_7080.jpg

I also tried scoring the bark and painted hormone on it, them packed it with sphagnum moss:
IMG_7082.jpg

I've taken cuttings so hopefully I will have some root grafts ready for next repot.
IMG_7086.jpg

Was good to have a go at the experiment to see what would happen and there you go.
 
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