Ground-layering to get rid of grafts

[Khaiba]

Hey guys,

I recently came across two articles, that, if I understand them correctly, state you can use ground-layering to remove grafts from
1. JWPs (https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rootgraf.htm) and
2. Prunus mume (https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8646-grafting-bonsai-prunus-mume).

Now, I am not sure if the same principle applies to both species.

1. Brent Walston mentions that it is possible as long as the graft is low enough on JWP (below or just above the crown ring):
"If your graft is below this ring of tissue, you may bury it up to the graft. If it is above the crown ring you can still bury it, but you must be much more careful. It is akin to air layering. Bury the stem section in sand after making some vertical slices in the stem where you want roots and treating with hormone. This will work for all pines that are 'low grafted', that is have a graft only an inch or so above the crown ring. If the pine is 'high grafted' it will have to be air layered. "

An online bonsai shop in my country produces JWPs with grafts quite low (https://bonsaischule.de/bonsai/bons...8324/pinus-parviflora-glauca?number=1023-01-T). Do you think it is possible to apply the aforementioned method of ground layering to produce roots right at the graft of these trees? I can't tell from the pictures if the graft is below the crown ring or above.

2. As for Prunus mume, I e-mailed a nursery that sells Prunus mume Beni-Chidori (https://www.pflanzmich.de/produkt/37056/japanische-zieraprikose.html) and they told me they use slice grafting for propogation and that the graft union is about 5-8cm (2-3 inches) above the roots. Before ordering a bunch of them, I thought I better check if it was possible to get rid of the grafts via ground-layering in case they are very unsightly.

If anyone has any experience or even a hunch whether ground-layering works on these species and if so, how high the success rate could be, I'd be really happy to hear it

Cheers,
Khai

 

[R3x]

In my opinion the difference between air layering and ground layering is actually non-existing. It's the same thing. It's just that with air layering you have to keep the bag of soil in place somehow (wrapped in plastic) around the site where you're attempting the layer. If it is low, you just cover it with soil as it has nowhere to fall.
I wouldn't know about JWPs but I am attempting to air/groung layer Scotts' Pine Hillside Creeper (branches are quite flexible and the tree bacbuds like crazy) grafted on common Scotts' Pine. Air/ground because it is quite high but I create a barrier from old plastic tank that is high enough from soil level. First year no roots, will see this year.
But I have been attempting some air layers on Beni-Chidori tree I have in garden for second year. First year the branches calloused nicely but I separated them at the end of autumn and they didn't root in spring. See few posts from here: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ume-cutting-good-or-bad.34293/page-4#post-691544 I attempted again but left them on the tree. Will see if they grow roots this year.

Also check out this great thread: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/p...ng-early-winter-the-peter-adams-method.36065/

 

[Khaiba]

I believed that perhaps ground-layers are more likely to be successful than air layers as they are more protected from frost, but I am probably mistaken.
I heard that air layers on pines can take several years, so I hope you will be successful this year. Keep me updated!
Sad to hear your air layers on Beni-Chidori did not work out. I read that you also have an Omoi-no-mama mume. Could you tell me where you got that one from? I have been trying hard to find one online but
the only ones I see are Beni-Chidori. If you happen to strike cuttings/air layers from it, I'd also be very happy to buy one from you

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The ground layers for JWP can take MANY years. One or two cultivars of JWP will layer relatively easily. The vast majority are very reluctant to ground layer. It can take 5, or 10 or 20 years to get them to ground layer. THe JWP 'Kokonoe' and JWP 'Zuisho' will probably ground layer in 2 or maybe 3 years. The others may take considerably longer.

 

[Paulpash]

Your second link is not related to layering but a different technique completely - grafting. I have heard from several sources that layering ume and Plum are extremely difficult. I've done some digging and can find no successful reports of layering ume on various forums. Given its popularity and general difficulty obtaining it (at least here in the UK) I would have thought that if it were common to propagate by this means I would have found more successes.

 

[Khaiba]

The ground layers for JWP can take MANY years. One or two cultivars of JWP will layer relatively easily. The vast majority are very reluctant to ground layer. It can take 5, or 10 or 20 years to get them to ground layer. THe JWP 'Kokonoe' and JWP 'Zuisho' will probably ground layer in 2 or maybe 3 years. The others may take considerably longer.

Do you think it is safe to put a tourniquet on them to ground-layer? (Fortunately) the pines are relatively young so I plan to let them grow in the ground for a few years anyways... Maybe they will have ground layered by then.

Would it be any faster and more likely to succeed if I were to just ground layer them right at the graft, meaning it will still be on the roots of the understock?
If I understand Brent correctly he does it similarly: "The graft can be placed just below the crown ring and after the graft takes, about a year later, the whole thing buried so that the graft sits right at the soil line. Since the buried stem portion is root tissue it can stand this procedure and has the possibility of forming roots. Grafted in this fashion the union will blend perfectly into the nebari (crown and surface roots). Also, since there is usually a bulge for dwarf cultivars, what was once a liability now becomes an asset since the swelling will be right at the crown. "
This is of course if the graft is below the "crown ring" (which I am still not able to really make out).

Your second link is not related to layering but a different technique completely - grafting. I have heard from several sources that layering ume and Plum are extremely difficult. I've done some digging and can find no successful reports of layering ume on various forums. Given its popularity and general difficulty obtaining it (at least here in the UK) I would have thought that if it were common to propagate by this means I would have found more successes.

Further down on the second link they start talking about layering Mume to get rid of the graft. Unfortunately I couldn't find any other reports or results about ground layering them, but as he grafts 200 Prunus mume every year I believe he has some experience:
"Grafting is just the first step that we use to have the selected variety. Then, I'd use another method of ground layering to get rid of the undisired grafting union, often seen on conifers or deciduous trees. "


If it is really that simple to get rid of unsightly grafts in this fashion, it would make finding worthy bonsai material much easier. I will definitely try it out on both JWP and Mume and post my results... might take a few years however

 

[R3x]

I believed that perhaps ground-layers are more likely to be successful than air layers as they are more protected from frost, but I am probably mistaken.
I heard that air layers on pines can take several years, so I hope you will be successful this year. Keep me updated!
Sad to hear your air layers on Beni-Chidori did not work out. I read that you also have an Omoi-no-mama mume. Could you tell me where you got that one from? I have been trying hard to find one online but
the only ones I see are Beni-Chidori. If you happen to strike cuttings/air layers from it, I'd also be very happy to buy one from you

I have a Beni-Chidor tree which is quite big so few failed branches are not of concern here. Last year I have been trying to root many from Beni-Chidori, some seem to have rooted. Will see if they survive winter and continue growing. Also have some cuttings in fridge as per the method linked in the other thread.

I have been long looking for sources and have collected few. Here they go:

• https://www.praskac.de/suche?text=mume&RESET=1 having Alboplena, Alphandii and Peggy Clark
• https://www.alberaturedagiardinofastigiata.it/it/search-results/?action=search&productids=3643 having Pendula but used to have also Omoi-No-Mama Try asking.
• https://www.ebay.de/usr/helmut_scholl?_trksid=p2047675.l2559 this eBay seller has cultivars Nanko, Kurare, Hirotsukasa, rote Blüten aufrechter Wuchs, reinweiße Blüten Hängeform, Prunus mume "Fuj-Botan Shidare" - weiß überhängend, Nr 16 - japanische Zieraprikose, rosa aufrechter Wuchs. But not currently. You have to setup an eBay watch to get notified when they're in stock.
• https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174246279530?ul_noapp=true - seedling only from a white flowering tree

Hope it helps.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Do you think it is safe to put a tourniquet on them to ground-layer? (Fortunately) the pines are relatively young so I plan to let them grow in the ground for a few years anyways... Maybe they will have ground layered by then.

Would it be any faster and more likely to succeed if I were to just ground layer them right at the graft, meaning it will still be on the roots of the understock?
If I understand Brent correctly he does it similarly: "The graft can be placed just below the crown ring and after the graft takes, about a year later, the whole thing buried so that the graft sits right at the soil line. Since the buried stem portion is root tissue it can stand this procedure and has the possibility of forming roots. Grafted in this fashion the union will blend perfectly into the nebari (crown and surface roots). Also, since there is usually a bulge for dwarf cultivars, what was once a liability now becomes an asset since the swelling will be right at the crown. "
This is of course if the graft is below the "crown ring" (which I am still not able to really make out).



Further down on the second link they start talking about layering Mume to get rid of the graft. Unfortunately I couldn't find any other reports or results about ground layering them, but as he grafts 200 Prunus mume every year I believe he has some experience:
"Grafting is just the first step that we use to have the selected variety. Then, I'd use another method of ground layering to get rid of the undisired grafting union, often seen on conifers or deciduous trees. "


If it is really that simple to get rid of unsightly grafts in this fashion, it would make finding worthy bonsai material much easier. I will definitely try it out on both JWP and Mume and post my results... might take a few years however

There is no fast method to ground layer JWP. The wire tourniquet may work, but if the cultivar you do this with is a slow to root cultivar the tourniquet could end up killing the tree. It is a long term project. If the trees were of modest cost to acquire, go ahead and put a wire tourniquet on, it will improve odds of roots forming.

After a seedling is more than a few years old it is extremely difficult to visually identify the crown ring. If you can see it, you can use the knowledge of its location to your advantage. More often than not, most of the time you can not tell where it is, or was. Yes roots will form below the crown ring.

 

[yashu]

Wondering if anyone has tried the JWP method noted above. I have a Goyomatsu that I’d like to attempt this on as it has the makings of a decent shohin if I could disguise or get rid of that graft.