Ground Planting Help

[AboveBeyond]

I have a few questions: 1) spacing between trees, 2) creating movement and 3) trunk chopping

1) I planted some trees last fall and being a newbie, wasn't sure if I provide adequate spacing between each tree. I'm concerned I may have planted too close to each other, there would be competition for space and light. Which isn't a concern right now since they are just pencil thin but years down the road it might be.

Can someone experienced with ground planting tell me if I provide enough spacing? And if so, can I actually plant more trees indicated by the location the red boxes (see pic 1)?

Left side


Right side


2) Can I start creating movement by using clip and grow pruning at this stage? Or is it too early? Or do I just let it grow wild?

3) At what point should I chop a trunk to increase the trunk size. Am I waiting the trees to become a certain height?

Thanks!

 

[tmmason10]

I think you have the room to plant where you have the red boxes. They won grow into full size mature trees, so that should be plenty of space. Brian can fleet has some great threads about growing stock out in the ground, and chopping to creat movement and taper. I'm jealous of your growing area, I can't wait to have my own yard!

 

[Anthony]

Abovebeyond,

it helps to have an idea of the height of the finished tree. Often it is 1 to 5 or 1 to 6, so a 15inch tree would have a 3 inch trunk. [ 1 to 6 is a graceful tree, 1 to 5 is more stout [ masculine ]]
This is just a guideline rule.

Factor in your age and hands to lift a simple 15 inch tree with a 3 inch trunk will have a pot that is 3 inches deep visually and be 10 to 11.25 inches long [ another guideline - 2/3 or 3/4 height of tree = length of pot. ]

As you get older .......... sons, cousins, brothers, yard hands ....... to lift and or repot the tree.

Using colanders? or pond baskets or other ?

Remember also the branch extensions influencing the trunk size.

The others will have more direct experience with what you are growing.
Best to you.
Good Day.
Anthony

 

[Dirty Nails]

Here is what I have been doing.


The raised bed is 8'x4'. Until this year I had everything in 1 gal cont. so there was room for 40 seedlings (5 x 8). Some little pines I had from seed didn't make it and others graduated in to training containers. The ones that remain are now in 3 gal cont. As far as fighting for space in the roots I didn't worry about it for the first 3 years. I only put a screen on the bottom hole and let the roots run out the side holes. Some roots were 2 ft out of the cont. That is OK because you just cut around the bottom of the container with a pruning saw when you want to lift it out. This year when they were lifted I put screen over all the holes in the new containers and I put tiles under the bottom. I wished I had done this from the VERY beginning. Get them down on tiles and start controlling downward growing roots right from the start. As far as fighting for canopy space. I put the A. Palatums in the middle of the bed for some afternoon shade and around the outside I put the bigger growing tridents and elms. I prune side branches that start knocking into others. I am NOT an expert but this seems to be working.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

My growing bed had 3 criteria:

1. Good sunlight
2. Convenient to water
3. Good soil

While I have a few dozen other trees scattered about the yard, this is the area that gets the most attention. Better trees are moved here so I can take better care of them...or out of here if I don't need to watch them as closely.

its about 10' square and has around 50 trees. Even the big tridents are only 12-15" apart. Probably tighter than ideal, but like Tom stated, they never get that big or bushy, 10-12' tall at most.

Pardon the mess...no time to weed lately, but here is my close-in bed.

 

[AboveBeyond]

My growing bed had 3 criteria:

1. Good sunlight
2. Convenient to water
3. Good soil

While I have a few dozen other trees scattered about the yard, this is the area that gets the most attention. Better trees are moved here so I can take better care of them...or out of here if I don't need to watch them as closely.

its about 10' square and has around 50 trees. Even the big tridents are only 12-15" apart. Probably tighter than ideal, but like Tom stated, they never get that big or bushy, 10-12' tall at most.

Pardon the mess...no time to weed lately, but here is my close-in bed.

Thanks Brian for the pics. Looks like I've spaced my plants far enough I can add actually plants more in between!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I have mine probably too close together at this point, but you could probably double or triple the ammont of material in the works. I would focus more on making the plants accessible and presentable rather than having them evenly spaced. Hopefully I'll be closing on a new yard, er I mean house, later this month. Ironically the landscaping is pretty nice as is, so I'll have a challenge working in all of my sticks in pots while keeping things presentable. I agree w jkl that part of the fun with ground growing is digging them up every couple years to check on them and influence the design, even if I slows them down a bit; i like to tinker.

 

[painter]

hey brian can we see the trunk on your red maple near the back
the darn squirrels keep eating the buds off my maples in fall so im loosing the lower branches
arggg. rats.

 

[Paulpash]

I have a few questions: 1) spacing between trees, 2) creating movement and 3) trunk chopping

1) I planted some trees last fall and being a newbie, wasn't sure if I provide adequate spacing between each tree. I'm concerned I may have planted too close to each other, there would be competition for space and light. Which isn't a concern right now since they are just pencil thin but years down the road it might be.

Can someone experienced with ground planting tell me if I provide enough spacing? And if so, can I actually plant more trees indicated by the location the red boxes (see pic 1)?

Left side
View attachment 34322

Right side
View attachment 34320

2) Can I start creating movement by using clip and grow pruning at this stage? Or is it too early? Or do I just let it grow wild?

3) At what point should I chop a trunk to increase the trunk size. Am I waiting the trees to become a certain height?

Thanks!

I have loads more packed into my beds - that should be fine! Read this about ground growing - it will be a big help:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

Happy growing

 

[Dav4]

If I can make a suggestion....get rid of the rest of the turf in your growing area; it will be a constant chore keeping it away from your trees. Also, do it the easy way. Years and years ago, I used to do it the old fashioned, hard way, as taught to me by my father as he enlisted me EVERY spring to renew and enlarge his veggie garden. Then, I used a spade to turn over the turf and weeds, and chop it up into the soil. I considered it to be a form of torture at the time, but it did help me to develop a fair bit of core and upper body strength. Today, if I were to be turning an area of turf into garden, I'd do this; take a Boston Sunday Globe, and from it lay down the newsprint on top of the grass, about 10-12 pages thick. Make sure you overlap sections by 4-6". Then, cover the newsprint with 2-3 inches deep of your organic mulch of choice- looks like you've got some wood chips there and that would work fine. If you had done this last fall, you would be able to simply sink your shovel into the ground and plant; the grass would have died and rotted enough by now to not impede your digging and actually be beneficial organicly speaking. Do it now and you should be good to go by mid summer, and definitely by next fall. Have fun and save me the sports section from the Globe!

Dave

 

[NewWorldBonsai]

I have a few questions: 1) spacing between trees, 2) creating movement and 3) trunk chopping

1) Spacing depends on the species you're trying to grow and also the size of the end tree you want. I.e. My Sageretia Theezans have grown out about 4 feet in all directions while my more apically dominant trees may gain similar mass but grow more vertically and can be planted closer.

For shohin sized stuff you will only need 2-3 feet between trees. After all you will want to get in there and hard prune them once or twice a year to build ramification and usable branches for styling, taper etc...

For large trees 4'+ is reasonable, again species and end result are the biggest factors they may need 10'+ if you wanted to grow a humongous silverthorn or bougainvillea.

2) I would highly recommend you wire the heck out of saplings now to get great movement in the finished tree. This is how professional grade trees are grown in Japan. Understand, the tightness of the bends and twists will dictate how large the final tree will be. If you let a tree with a great bend grow too long the movement will be lost.

3) Totally depends on final product. To grow a mature Trident with good taper might require half a dozen trunk chops. When and how they are performed will make either a great tree or a mediocre one. This is something you just have to do and figure out. Reading helps but getting your hands dirty is the best education imho

Most importantly I would root prune your field grown candidates before they go into the ground. Also I would really recommend planting your trees on tiles (plywood or any hard and flat surface) to expedite your efforts. Bury the tile 4-6" and lay out the roots in a nice radiating fashion.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

hey brian can we see the trunk on your red maple near the back
the darn squirrels keep eating the buds off my maples in fall so im loosing the lower branches
arggg. rats.

It's still very young. It is an air layer from an air layer from my Shishio. Here is the one in the ground, and it's parent tree is in the white pot.

The one in the pot has a lot of potential, after I thread grafted all new branches onto it. I potted it this spring to make it easier to clean up and heal over some of the scars. Once it has some direction and a tidy trunk, I'll likely put it back in the ground to swell up for a few more years.

 

[painter]

that s funny that could be my tree.
it looks just like that, minus the new buds. some are beginning now.but its much slower to put on new growth b/c of the squirrels so its not taking off like i wished.
thanks.

 

[fore]

I didn't want to start a thread for one question about in ground training. Brent said this about when to chop: "The larger the trunk you desire, the longer you allow the new leader to grow. In approximate terms, let it grow until it reaches half to two thirds the caliper of the desired trunk or trunk section. For example, if you desire a three inch trunk, it makes little sense to make the first trunk cut until the stem has reached an inch and a half."
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

I've got two 6.5' T trees in ground, ch elm and trident. Both have been in ground 2 yr, but I had to move them to a new location last spring. They're 1 3/4" wide. I'd like around a 5" trunk. If I let them grow till they are 4" w trunks, it seems like they'll be at least 15' T to get a trunk that wide. I've not seen pics of trees being grown out that large. Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[cmeg1]

What about turning the top in to a bush and stop the hieght?Some of he tallest trees I have seen had actually quite thin trunks,but if there is more green on the plant I think it would girth up and build wood quicker.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I didn't want to start a thread for one question about in ground training. Brent said this about when to chop: "The larger the trunk you desire, the longer you allow the new leader to grow. In approximate terms, let it grow until it reaches half to two thirds the caliper of the desired trunk or trunk section. For example, if you desire a three inch trunk, it makes little sense to make the first trunk cut until the stem has reached an inch and a half."
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

I've got two 6.5' T trees in ground, ch elm and trident. Both have been in ground 2 yr, but I had to move them to a new location last spring. They're 1 3/4" wide. I'd like around a 5" trunk. If I let them grow till they are 4" w trunks, it seems like they'll be at least 15' T to get a trunk that wide. I've not seen pics of trees being grown out that large. Am I understanding this correctly?

They might end up getting 15' tall at times...whatever it takes to get the trunk fat. I prune mine back a little when the side shoots grow out into the path or shade out something below it, but try not to disturb the main leader of the section I'm trying to grow. I'll upload another shot of this trident later...you'll see what I mean.

 

[coh]

Chris, I'm growing a black locust for bonsai use (experimental) and I've let it just grow...it's probably close to 20' now with a trunk base around 4-4.5" I'll be chopping it way down in the spring. Amazing thing is it's only been in the ground for 2 growing seasons. I'm a little afraid what the root system might be like...

Not unheard of for people to purchase nursery stock that is 15 or 20' tall and chop it down even before leaving the nursery.

Chris

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is the trident maple, the same as the 2010 BNut maple project thread. I let the central leader run, but trim back some side shoots to allow light to reach lower trees. It does bush out above, and no doubt contributes to the thickening of the trunk. Since I chopped it back to about 6" tall in March, the 10' of new growth is all this year's!

 

[prestontolbert]

What about turning the top in to a bush and stop the hieght?Some of he tallest trees I have seen had actually quite thin trunks,but if there is more green on the plant I think it would girth up and build wood quicker.

You are really better off allowing it to get tall. The taller it is, the quicker it will buttress at the nebari due to flagging in the wind.

 

[gergwebber]

I've got two 6.5' T trees in ground, ch elm and trident. Both have been in ground 2 yr, but I had to move them to a new location last spring. They're 1 3/4" wide. I'd like around a 5" trunk. If I let them grow till they are 4" w trunks, it seems like they'll be at least 15' T to get a trunk that wide. I've not seen pics of trees being grown out that large. Am I understanding this correctly?

Mechanical stress, caused by wind, gravity, or just a tall, top heavy leader on a sapling, produces the formation of reaction wood. This extra growth can help bulk out trunks and nebari. It probably helped Brian's trees get those awesome trunk flutes we all covet.