Grow Bags Versus Pond Baskets

[pweifan]

Thank you! I'll have to try these out this spring. Any issues with them not holding the weight of a large tree?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Thank you! I'll have to try these out this spring. Any issues with them not holding the weight of a large tree?

Depends how you define "large". For anything up to about 18" - 24" no problem. Once you get to about 3' it requires a little creative engineering to anchor the tree in the flat until it develops root mass. I will poke holes in the rim to use for guy wires, or else simply run wires up through the bottom of the mesh like you do in a bonsai pot. A lot depends on your bonsai soil mix as well. I tend to use mostly pumice, which is a little lighter than lava or acadama. If you are doing something big like a California juniper I would consider using pieces of wood board to prop up and secure the tree until the roots get going.

One other potential downside... if you place these directly on the ground trees will root right through them. Not a bad thing, in my opinion, as long as you plan for it. If I place these directly in the ground I always put them over 6" of pine nuggets. Then after a year I can lift them up and shear the roots off along the bottom of the flat. If the flats had been placed directly on clay soil, I might have difficulty moving/lifting them even after a single year.

 

[flyinmanatee]

I only use pond baskets for smaller trees that are in development. For larger trees in development I like using Anderson flats. 15 3/4" x 15 3/4" x 5" deep. They cost $3.50 each and last indefinitely.

View attachment 167234

I'm confused. I thought the idea to have the drainage on the sides and not necessary on the bottom?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I'm confused. I thought the idea to have the drainage on the sides and not necessary on the bottom?

What you want is to have maximum water and air flow. You have to balance this with the risk of roots drying out. If you use a low growing flat, most of your contact area with the air will be through the surface of the soil and the bottom of the flat (particularly if the flat is sitting on an open surface). The sides don't take up as much surface area compared to a nursery pot (for example). In a perfect world the sides would be mesh... but I give that up in exchange for stability and long-term durability.

The Anderson flat has a volume of 1240 cubic inches, and 61% of its surface area is open or mesh.

A 10.75" cube has a volume of 1240 cubic inches, and if it were only open at the top and mesh on the bottom, 33% of its surface area would be open or mesh. That is why mesh sides are so much more important the closer you get to a cube-shaped growing container.

 

[drew33998]

How long do the colanders last? I am still thinking that for deciduous material, growing purposes it would be best to put in the ground or a regular pot. We know we can severely cut back the roots and it will survive. At the growing period we just care about growing roots and shoots as long as possible to beef up the trunk. Besides does Brent use colanders for any of his trees? Hasn't he been doing this for 20 years? Has to be a reason. I don't think the mesh bottom on that Anderson flat will last indefinitely. Maybe 10 years max. Unless you have some different experience?

 

[Paradox]

I dont like the grow bags and I will never use them.

I got a really nice San Jose Juniper in a workshop that was in a grow bag. We did a lot of work to it so I didnt want to repot it... I should have.

I found the grow bag didnt drain well enough, the soil stayed too wet and the tree was dead by the end of the summer.

Pond baskets and Anderson flats are much better

 

[sorce]

How long do the colanders last? I am still thinking that for deciduous material, growing purposes it would be best to put in the ground or a regular pot. We know we can severely cut back the roots and it will survive. At the growing period we just care about growing roots and shoots as long as possible to beef up the trunk. Besides does Brent use colanders for any of his trees? Hasn't he been doing this for 20 years? Has to be a reason. I don't think the mesh bottom on that Anderson flat will last indefinitely. Maybe 10 years max. Unless you have some different experience?

Especially after pulling my basketed things out of the ground this fall, and having them grow just fine and shortly after being lifted, continue to grow roots from the cut ends....

I see a colander in the ground a highly useful tool.

If just to give you that edge to cut back to.

But then the added convenience of an undisturbed core left to regrow feeders......

Now let's say you went a step further and crafted the basket (colander) to the same shape as your final pot....?

Now THERE IS a slip potting I can get behind!

After a couple waning moons in the basket alone again....
The feeders can hold the soil together perfectly to just wire it into a final pot with minimal further disturbance of the core.

Dirt has to be washed out.....
Bonsai soil will fall out...
How else to have an undisturbed core?

Thanks for your persistence @Anthony !

Sorce

 

[jeanluc83]

I am still thinking that for deciduous material, growing purposes it would be best to put in the ground or a regular pot.

I don't think using colanders was ever meant to be a catch-all for every kind of tree. It was mainly a technique for growing pines. Trees that can take more root work can likely be grown in the ground faster.

 

[drew33998]

Sure but you will undoubtedly have roots thats escape that are much stronger than others creating a one sided nebari and cracking and ruining the colander. So what would be the difference in ground growing at that point? Why not ground grow and then just air layer when the trunk is at the thickness you like? For deciduous trees and evergreens with fine root systems.

 

[drew33998]

I don't think using colanders was ever meant to be a catch-all for every kind of tree. It was mainly a technique for growing pines. Trees that can take more root work can likely be grown in the ground faster.

Im not so sure. I see alot of people using them for deciduous and im just wondering why. I think if the moisture content and oxygen content of your planting medium is adequate then you can use anything.

My research has shown me that it is easier for me to control the moisture content in a pot than the ground. Partly due to my mostly sandy soil. My soil lacks moisture content and the percolation rste is very low. I get better growth in pots unless i mulch heavily around trees in pots.

 

[jeanluc83]

I think a lot would depend on your soil. Something areas are going to be better than others for ground growing.

Ground growing is a skill as well. You can't just plunk a tree in the ground and hope for the best. The tree needs to be lifted periodically so that the roots can be worked and the tree needs to be chopped back to creat taper. The timing and frequency of each will effect how the tree progresses.

 

[River's Edge]

I think a lot would depend on your soil. Something areas are going to be better than others for ground growing.

Ground growing is a skill as well. You can't just plunk a tree in the ground and hope for the best. The tree needs to be lifted periodically so that the roots can be worked and the tree needs to be chopped back to creat taper. The timing and frequency of each will effect how the tree progresses.

My experience with grow bags used in the ground has been poor. The roots tend to circle and grow back inward creating a difficult rootball to deal with. Containers that allow some roots to escape are an improvement. As stated above, the key is a system that works for your soil conditions and allows you to manage the periodic developmental work. Getting down to ground level to maintain trees is not for all age groups. Love my anderson flats, larger pond baskets, colandars and cedar grow boxes. They all have their particular benefits and allow me to move trees to where i can easily work on them. On the outside bench or in my studio. I agree with others who think the timing and frequency of developmental work is critical and for that reason i like convenient.

 

[jmw_bonsai]

I am using the Root Pouch ones you posted a link to. I am mainly growing out stock. Ill give some data this spring how they did over the last year when I repot some of them. This spring was the first time I worked any roots and put a good many trees into them. I really like them for growing out. One issue for when you get a root pad closer to Bonsai or even pre-Bonsai form they don't have anything with more width than height. To get around this I just pot by width and don't fill as much or I roll the sides over. But for growing out stock I have liked them so far.

 

[eferguson1974]

I had an idea for using colander that was working, til a "friend" pulled apart and screwed it up. I put a bouganvilla in a colander, filled with gravel (all I could get where I was). I filled a 5 gallon bucket (with holes) with potting soil and put the colander on top of the soil. In 2 weeks the roots were growing into the soil and the tree exploded with growth. It was working well til my amigo pulled it apart. The colander kept a bunch of roots in it, so separating the bucket and colander was easy, and didn't hurt the tree. This might be a good way to grow out trees for people who can't put them in the ground, or need to be able to move them like I did. Other trees that I put in colanders with no bucket grew slower, so I'd like to experiment with the idea more. Now I'm starting over from scratch, so I will try it again. But nothing grew roots as nice as my aquaponic system, which grew perfect roots, shallow and perfectly radial. I can't wait to set up again and do a proper experiment with good pics. Also, a tree in a colander set in a depression in the aquaponic growbed for an hour or two watered and fertilized my trees, then I changed trees. It was going great until I had to leave. I think a fish tank and growbed, AP style, is awesome for trees and unbeatable for lots of organic veggies. More people should try, the results were much better than in soil or gravel.

 

[Smoke]

In my experience colander growing should be the last step in a tree developed from nursery material or dug from the ground. Colanders provide the perfect medium for growing a fiberous root system for allowing into a final pot. Course roots can be cut away after as little as one season in a colander elevated off the bench. If the colander is allowed the ground, the plants will escape and the whole purpose of the colander is defeated. Colanders are not well suited for growing out material like the ground or a large grow pot would be. Big growth comes from running roots which a colander controls. All the tricks we use in bonsai actually have a purpose. Part of the technique is knowing when to use what when. And why it works. Let experience be your guide.

 

[Owen Reich]

Collanders can work for some applications like creating thick trunked, small black pine. I'll try and find a few when in Japan this winter. I agree with @Smoke on the finishing of trees. I'd recommend the AARPAC pots for that purpose as well. They are well made.

I've used a few products in the nursery trade and for bonsai creation. AARPAC pots (made in TN) work very well and have feet, but weeds germinate in the sides and moss will eventually grow there year two. Fanntum bags (from SC) work super well if you don't have to move them for a year. The really big ones are the best product I've used for rooting in big non-bonsai trees. Alan Fann even drove out to help us assemble. I'd use them for refinement of medium to large size field grown or any collected material. The small ones are just ok; tend to fall over.

The weird air pots with the green clip and separate mesh bottom I'm unsure on; they were just too expensive for small trees. However, for medium to large trees they would be good for ground layering.

The original "Rootmaker" aka Whitcomb pots from I believe Ohio are nice, but expensive. The rootmaker trays for propagation are not great. Expensive and limit bench space. I'd only use them for slow to root or super moisture sensitive (excess) cuttings.

The spun fiber rock wool or whatever they're made of bags are sketchy due to high algae growth. Using knitting mesh is good for ground layering too.

As was stated above, if you're re-potting with a plan of action, many approaches will work. I use bus tubs from culinary supply stores for larger trees and a power drill to punch a bunch of small holes in the bottom.

 

[Anthony]

@Owen Reich,

the weird ones are from Scotland.

With the tamarind as the test plant, the plant filled the pot with so many roots
that when removed it was a log of wood.

Run against another tamarind in a normal pot, with same % of soil.
The airpot out performed the normal pot.
As an extra the airpot tamarind now in a bonsai pot also has smaller leaves.

We found that the colander with ground growing gives a safety net, for
removal, as the buried colander [ no UV ] also lets the tree recover the fine feeder
roots.
When removed from the colander, any large roots are very easily removed as
well, due to the fine feeder roots.

Good to see you around.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Owen Reich]

It would be interesting to see some photos of some of the trial plants. Given the intensity of your growing season; or lack of a stop to it ; ).

I’ve watched the growth of apricots that were potted in Fanntum bags, then planted in the ground. The felt in the bottom failed in ground in most instances, but the fibrous roots inside bag were nice. The issue was the top growth was just as strong as if you planted in ground, leading to the excess vigor associated with in-ground growing of many deciduous species.

So, no major benefit. It was easier to dig them up. Trees could’ve been dug up and root pruned sans bag, and the root flare could be developed much wider. For mass production, not bad.

 

[Anthony]

@Owen Reich .

Here you are.
Good Day
Anthony

images -

Both have the same amount of soil to grow in. Same age.
Notice tape on air pot.
Tamarind.



How we use a colander ------- ground planted and then when ready easily removed with colander.
Then using the colander's ability to aid in regeneration of fine feeder roots.

This allows us to safely remove large roots and prepare the tree for refinement.

Celtis l.



1st year of refinement ----- was in a large pot for root correction ---- smaller pot for branchlets.



Hackberry wood rots easily down here.
Healing hole.