grow box vs overpotting

[Joe Dupre']

Just 4 years into this hobby and I'm a little confused on a couple of terms. It seems overpotting is a bad thing...........putting a tree into too big of a container has some negative effects. On the other hand, a grow box is a good thing. So what exactly is the difference?

 

[sorce]

When they say Grow boxes.. .....

They mean, as small of a grow box as you can fit the roots in.

S

 

[Anthony]

Grow Box should be called Refinement Box.
For refining branches - we use a larger plastic bonsai pot.

From what was observed down here, thicker trunks usually
needs some form of ground growing.
Only a few tree types can expand trunks in a large pot. Ficus
is perhaps the most extreme example, 1 inch deep bonsai pot.

With a 1/3 of a US 55 gallon barrel, we can trunk thicken certain
elm cultivars and a few local trees.
Also maybe a trident maple [ only had 1 tree to test ]

You can also ground grow for trunk, with a tile, roots [ if the type
shows them ]and 6 branches.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Joe Dupre']

So, has anyone used an extra large container like Anthony described? On what species and how did it perform. Basically, what's considered "too big" of a container for growing out trees.

 

[sparklemotion]

I think the rule of thumb in the nursery trade is add 4 inches on the sides and bottom when going up a pot size. So, 2" in diameter and 2" in height. This follows from the various series of pot sizes (not that there is any kind of standard, but each supplier usually goes from about a 4in, to a 1# (6 inches), 3# (8 inches), etc.)

That's where I start when thinking about "how big" the next pot for a tree that needs to grow more should be. I'm still playing around with the best way to go up in pot volume but not necessarily depth on the cheap, with minimal carpentry. (cut down nursery pots, Anderson flats, etc.)

 

[parhamr]

One significant difference between an excessively large pot and a sufficiently large grow box is the pot will be deep enough as to upset the water-to-oxygen balance of the soil. A deep water column will lead to wet, suffocating root tissue.

A grow box “should be” much wider than deep, which provides for a lot of root growth space without significantly impacting the ability of water and air to flow through the root mass.

I’ve had a lot of success with boxes from 16 to 21 inches square by 3 to 5 inches deep.

I’ve had various failures with 5 to 10 gallon nursery cans that are as deep as they are wide.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Thanks guys. I'm sure the nursery trade is geared towards a tree going into the landscape, so their pot shape and size is skewed in that direction. Parhamr, the size you have had success with sounds good. Emphasis on "had a lot of success". That usually does it for me.

 

[Saddler]

My anecdotal evidence has shown me that oversized grow boxes offer all the downsides of growing in the ground (course leggy roots with fine feeder roots far from the trunk) with none of the upside (it doesn’t grow much faster then a smaller pot).

I’ve heard other reasons like the soil stays too wet and other things, but never saw evidence of that. I also learned quickly that it wasn’t working so I stopped before any other problems may have come up.

 

[Anthony]

Ha ha Saddler,

that's why we added on growing in a colander in the ground [ growing trough ]
Images later.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Dav4]

For me, grow boxes are all about developing the nebari, allowing the roots to be spread out laterally at each re-pot, perhaps on a board, where they will grow out instead of down or in a circle. Lot's of screen on the bottom and large aggregate soil ensures a good environment for root growth. A second benefit is vigorous top growth which allows strong top growth which can be cut back frequently to develop taper.

 

[sorce]

Good Stuff...

Further.......

Walter talks about "the smallest possible pot"....

For me...this equals...

"Only slightly larger than the Finished visible Nebari"..

Because after that.... It doesn't matter what the roots look like, or (it depends) where they go.

But Too small, and you get kinked, circlers, in view.

Shallow as Possible...(it depends)

Pumice...
100% pumice.

I am seeing why it is the choice soil for these situations....

Small root mass, odd shaped root mass, where there is much unused space in a pot/box/colander...

It is so even .....

I put 2 near dead Boxwood in it...
One severely overpotted...
They are well.

Round Pumice from @RKatzin ...
That's what I been using.

My dream system would totally be a flood and drain hydro with pumice. Top rain water sprinklers too . But feeding in the hydro. Up from the bottom to miss the moss on top! Done.

S

 

[BE.REAL]

Good Stuff...

Further.......

Walter talks about "the smallest possible pot"....

For me...this equals...

"Only slightly larger than the Finished visible Nebari"..

Because after that.... It doesn't matter what the roots look like, or (it depends) where they go.

But Too small, and you get kinked, circlers, in view.

Shallow as Possible...(it depends)

Pumice...
100% pumice.

I am seeing why it is the choice soil for these situations....

Small root mass, odd shaped root mass, where there is much unused space in a pot/box/colander...

It is so even .....

I put 2 near dead Boxwood in it...
One severely overpotted...
They are well.

Round Pumice from @RKatzin ...
That's what I been using.

My dream system would totally be a flood and drain hydro with pumice. Top rain water sprinklers too . But feeding in the hydro. Up from the bottom to miss the moss on top! Done.

S

I too am a fan of Pumice. However, I am restricted on suppliers. The bags I get now most of which is smaller grain than I prefer. I am curious if size is "that big" of an issue? I am talking MM, most wouldn't get through a screen door sift, if that gives you an idea. Anyway, I have found pumice and 8822 to be great. But I have never had, Akadama or true lava rocks. Just a thought and curious what others find/think.

 

[Anthony]

Be ware of using inorganics that roots can crush.
Test red lava.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Johnathan]

Just to piggy back here.... and officially crush my idea.... you guys are saying it would be worthless to put these 1 of these seedlings into its very own Anderson flat for a few years with the thought it would thicken?



And if I cant get it into the actual ground, then just leave it in nursery pots until I can?

 

[parhamr]

you guys are saying it would be worthless to put these 1 of these seedlings into its very own Anderson flat for a few years

Go for it! I do this and get 0.5–1" of trunk diameter gains in a year for younger trees.

 

[milehigh_7]

Just 4 years into this hobby and I'm a little confused on a couple of terms. It seems overpotting is a bad thing...........putting a tree into too big of a container has some negative effects. On the other hand, a grow box is a good thing. So what exactly is the difference?

Read this classic:
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/earthpot.htm

 

[Anthony]

We use earthenware ] porus ] pots at 16 x 5 or 6 inches deep.
These lose water normally.
Making a few next week.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

Just to piggy back here.... and officially crush my idea.... you guys are saying it would be worthless to put these 1 of these seedlings into its very own Anderson flat for a few years with the thought it would thicken?

View attachment 213777

And if I cant get it into the actual ground, then just leave it in nursery pots until I can?

Here’s my 2 cents... in my first year I threw a bunch of seedlings and smaller trees into flats, grow boxes, colanders...you name it, I did it. But, I ran into some issues.

First, they get heavy. So now I’ve got way too many boxes and flats to get in and out when the freezes come in the spring. Second, they take a lot of substrate. You can use less expensive materials if you like, but you’ll pay the price of those less expensive materials down the road. And third, I didn’t yet know exactly how to grow all the different trees I tried to put in these boxes and flats, so most died anyway!

Here is how I’ve evolved, and I’m hoping I’ll continue to evolve...

I’m finding that there is nothing wrong with keeping a tree in a small nursery pot for a year or two. The benefits are many...easy to move, easier to care for, and the tree still grows.

I now reserve boxes and flats for trees I value greatly, are confident I know how to grow, and are not quite ready for pots.

Seedlings stay in their small pots until my understanding of the tree is better understood or placed in the ground.

Hope that helps!

 

[Vance Wood]

You are avoiding, or ignoring, the importance of a compact root system that will allow a tree, with a lot of above ground mass, to be supported by a small fibrous root system. This does not happen by itself. Over potting a tree will only encourage large roots that will in the end require a lot of reduction over years of effort. You may have a larger trunk but it will be useless without this kind of reduction that will take the kind of knowledge and experience to accomplish.

My invention that develops find root systems capable of being reduced drastically.

 

[Johnathan]

I now reserve boxes and flats for trees I value greatly, are confident I know how to grow, and are not quite ready for pots.

Seedlings stay in their small pots until my understanding of the tree is better understood or placed in the ground.

Hope that helps!

But wouldn't a flat, be more comparable to the ground than a nursery pot? For growing a seedling quicker wouldn't the flat be more beneficial than a nursery pot?