grow box vs overpotting

Johnathan

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You are avoiding, or ignoring, the importance of a compact root system that will allow a tree, with a lot of above ground mass, to be supported by a small fibrous root system. This does not happen by itself. Over potting a tree will only encourage large roots that will in the end require a lot of reduction over years of effort. You may have a larger trunk but it will be useless without this kind of reduction that will take the kind of knowledge and experience to accomplish.

My invention that develops find root systems capable of being reduced drastically.View attachment 214117

@Vance Wood I know that you don't generally work with seedlings or trees in a growing out stage, I've seen first hand how beneficial pond baskets and baskets similar to yours are for developing compact roots. It's become my understanding this year that baskets are for trees ready for refinement, not trees still growing trunks.

I know you have a wealth of knowledge and experience, and I'm sure you've done your share of growing out in your time. My questions to you would be this. Obviously, ground growing is the best option. But what would you consider the 2nd best option for growing a trunk? A basket, flat, or nursery pot?
 

milehigh_7

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@Vance Wood I know that you don't generally work with seedlings or trees in a growing out stage, I've seen first hand how beneficial pond baskets and baskets similar to yours are for developing compact roots. It's become my understanding this year that baskets are for trees ready for refinement, not trees still growing trunks.

I know you have a wealth of knowledge and experience, and I'm sure you've done your share of growing out in your time. My questions to you would be this. Obviously, ground growing is the best option. But what would you consider the 2nd best option for growing a trunk? A basket, flat, or nursery pot?

You were not asking me but I will give you my 2 cents anyhow. Ground growing gives you a big, but often boring, trunk in the fastest way. Then you must undertake fixing the roots that will be a mess.

If you have the right size of screen pot (one that will allow for air pruning) you will have better results from the start. The roots that that are developed in screen side containers are almost completely fine feeder roots. The only exception being an inch or so from the trunk. When you repot you can get in a much smaller pot much sooner.

Another benefit is how much oxygen and nutrients you can get to your roots in the right size container. Remember all the roots you will have in the container are of the highest efficiency as opposed to thick, woody, inefficient roots. So your top and trunk actually grow quite quickly.

If your screen side pot is too big, you will have roots that either never get to the edge or are too long and thus creating the same problem.

Oh. and if you use good soil, a pot that is too big is expensive to fill with that soil.
 

Anthony

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To counter the boring big trunk, design first.
Cut next.
Pre-plan.
Same for roots - flare or high v or deeply rooted, what
does the tree normally do in nature ?
Good Day
Anthony
 

Vance Wood

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But wouldn't a flat, be more comparable to the ground than a nursery pot? For growing a seedling quicker wouldn't the flat be more beneficial than a nursery pot?
Yes and no. More beneficial in being shallow in nature, more like the end configuration of most bonsai pots, but not any more encouraging of fine feeder roots than anything without some sort of intervention.
 

Johnathan

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You were not asking me but I will give you my 2 cents anyhow. Ground growing gives you a big, but often boring, trunk in the fastest way. Then you must undertake fixing the roots that will be a mess.

If you have the right size of screen pot (one that will allow for air pruning) you will have better results from the start. The roots that that are developed in screen side containers are almost completely fine feeder roots. The only exception being an inch or so from the trunk. When you repot you can get in a much smaller pot much sooner.

Another benefit is how much oxygen and nutrients you can get to your roots in the right size container. Remember all the roots you will have in the container are of the highest efficiency as opposed to thick, woody, inefficient roots. So your top and trunk actually grow quite quickly.

If your screen side pot is too big, you will have roots that either never get to the edge or are too long and thus creating the same problem.

Oh. and if you use good soil, a pot that is too big is expensive to fill with that soil.

So, long story short.... they key is variables... for those seedlings I posted earlier, they are oak seedlings. A notoriously slow container grower. I want to put them into 100% NAPA DE until I can get them into the ground in 2020 or 2021. My thought is I can get them started in a container/basket and then put into the ground for thickening. Reasoning, they're wired up now (at least the bottom few inches are. Like @Anthony stated, nobody likes a boring straight trunk ) so after the base design is set or at least I'm confident it wont just be a boring straight trunk for 10 inches, then I will plant into the ground. For thickness.

So, cheap soil, slow grower, not overly concerned with weight just yet. All those things now known...

Would a @Vance Wood pond basket benefit better for a couple years producing highly efficient roots, promoting better ground growth? OR would the flat be better generating longer more uninterrupted roots, promoting better ground growth?
 
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I'm a fan of grow boxes. Give the roots lateral spread and using large grained substrate no reason to worry about overwatering. Roots always gravitate to the portion of the rootball where the conditions are ideal. With a screaned box (Vance) in the dry season roots are needed to rejuvenate and grow more central in the rootball. Except when you place them in moist environment roots won't grow long and stay compact. This is ideal for conifers or 'not often to repot trees'. In grow boxes it is important to know where you want the roots. You want some of them close to the trunk and you want some strong growing out evenly distributed too. Place some finer substrate close to the base so this stays more moist. I leave them 2 to 4 years and no problems with coarse roots (like in the ground) or slow growing (like in pot). Yes it becomes heavy and yes it uses a lot of substrate. It all depends what your goal is and what type of tree and what your water regime and feeding schedule is.
Specific for oak small container in the beginning is good to set a fine root structure, then i would gradually increase the size of the box. You might need 10 years or more to have a good result.
 

Sifu

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I use big and deep plastic training pots. On bottom (1/3 volume of the pot) i put baked loam for extra good drainage. The soil i use is cheap potting soil mixture with a lot of peat + little sand. It doesn't matter for a season or two. I never keep my trees in that kind of soil for more then two years.
Anyway i am not a fan of very small pots. You need to water trees twice per day in such a small pots with anorganic substrate, while in deeper pots with organic soil twice or three times per week is usually enough. So if you guys have a time and patience to water your trees twice or three times per day ... :)
 

Vance Wood

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I use big and deep plastic training pots. On bottom (1/3 volume of the pot) i put baked loam for extra good drainage. The soil i use is cheap potting soil mixture with a lot of peat + little sand. It doesn't matter for a season or two. I never keep my trees in that kind of soil for more then two years.
Anyway i am not a fan of very small pots. You need to water trees twice per day in such a small pots with anorganic substrate, while in deeper pots with organic soil twice or three times per week is usually enough. So if you guys have a time and patience to water your trees twice or three times per day ... :)
Water two or three times a week you will have dead trees. If you keep your trees in a substrate that is so moisture retentive as to allow that kind of watering schedule you'll lose trees because of soil problems. I have grown trees in this kind of environment since the mid to late 80's.
 

bonsaichile

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I use big and deep plastic training pots. On bottom (1/3 volume of the pot) i put baked loam for extra good drainage. The soil i use is cheap potting soil mixture with a lot of peat + little sand. It doesn't matter for a season or two. I never keep my trees in that kind of soil for more then two years.
Anyway i am not a fan of very small pots. You need to water trees twice per day in such a small pots with anorganic substrate, while in deeper pots with organic soil twice or three times per week is usually enough. So if you guys have a time and patience to water your trees twice or three times per day ... :)
If you dont have patience, you might be in the wrong hobby! ?
 

Vance Wood

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If you dont have patience, you might be in the wrong hobby! ?
Some trees, Mugos specifically, like the constant flow of fresh water but they do not like to be kept wet. The constant flow of fresh water keeps the soil clean and free off contaminants and fungi. Fungus infections cannot develop in a medium that has a good deal of air circulation, this is an inhospitable environment for most natural pathogens that can kill a tree.
 

bonsaichile

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Some trees, Mugos specifically, like the constant flow of fresh water but they do not like to be kept wet. The constant flow of fresh water keeps the soil clean and free off contaminants and fungi. Fungus infections cannot develop in a medium that has a good deal of air circulation, this is an inhospitable environment for most natural pathogens that can kill a tree.
That is one of the reasons I prefer fully inorganic substrate for my conifers!
 

Vance Wood

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That is one of the reasons I prefer fully inorganic substrate for my conifers!
You can make a soil mix out of dog poop if you take care to manage it correctly, however I am fully invested in using nearly 30% composted Pine bark mulch in all my soil mixes. It seem I get a better development of beneficial organisms than without the use of mulch.
 

bonsaichile

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You can make a soil mix out of dog poop if you take care to manage it correctly, however I am fully invested in using nearly 30% composted Pine bark mulch in all my soil mixes. It seem I get a better development of beneficial organisms than without the use of mulch.
I will try that
 

Sifu

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Water two or three times a week you will have dead trees. If you keep your trees in a substrate that is so moisture retentive as to allow that kind of watering schedule you'll lose trees because of soil problems. I have grown trees in this kind of environment since the mid to late 80's.
I was talking about training pots. On the bottom of my pots i put enough drainage to prevent root rot: baked loam, a lot of it. So it's not just a moisture soil, it is also a pot, which is pretty deep. Deep pot + moisture soil + good drainage on the bottom (one third of the pot) and i haven't experienced any issues for last 6 or 7 years ... Sure, i repot my trees every two years. It would be too risky leaving them in that kind of soil/pot for more then three years. I need to mention that i only have deciduous trees for now. Maybe this kind of training is really not suitable for conifers.

But then how have some "classical" Japanese bonsai (mostly conifers) survived for hundred or some of them even hundreds of years in deeper pots and moisture soil before modern substrate era and smaller pots occur? ;) So i really need to work on my own experience. I guess that 400 years old juniper has grown in big deep pot with organic soil (maybe some sand or/and grave has been added) until modern era. So if junipers and pines could survived that way, everything is possible.
 
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Sifu

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If you dont have patience, you might be in the wrong hobby! ?
I have a lot of patience, but not with watering twice per day during hot summers :cool:
 

Warlock

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You are avoiding, or ignoring, the importance of a compact root system that will allow a tree, with a lot of above ground mass, to be supported by a small fibrous root system. This does not happen by itself. Over potting a tree will only encourage large roots that will in the end require a lot of reduction over years of effort. You may have a larger trunk but it will be useless without this kind of reduction that will take the kind of knowledge and experience to accomplish.

My invention that develops find root systems capable of being reduced drastically.View attachment 214117
Do you have a thread on your boxes?? How you make or what screen you are using?
 
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