Grow out boxes for branch development?

[Ingvill]

Probobly a bit of a daft question, but I don't know the answer, so here it goes;

I have several trees in sizeable grow out boxes to develop trunk size and taper.
(Species in question: azalea, mulberry, ficus, cherry, elm & maple.)

When I'm happy with the trunks;
- should the trees still remain in the big boxes until the branches are all developed too?
- or will branches develop just as well in a smaller sized training pot or even in a regular bonsai pot?

 

[Anthony]

Ingvill,

I am not sure when this bit of mis-information evolved, but let
us correct it.

Firstly, most trees respond to ground growing for trunk thickening.
Only a few will trunk thicken in large boxes [ or will do so slowly ]

So it is ground growing for trunks, and a tile for surface roots [ if the
tree exhibits this feature with age ].
Also if you want you can add on 6 or so branches at the same time.
But this comes with practice / experience.

When the trunk is close to what you want, you transfer to a refinement
box. For us down here we use large plastic bonsai pots or large mica
pots.
Then you work on the branchlets.

I was informed by SKbonsai before he/she left, that most folks don't have
yards.
So if this is the case perhaps a friend's yard or farm or .....................
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Ingvill]

Thank you for your reply!
I can go forward with my original plans for these trees then.

Yes, I am fully aware that it will take a long time to thicken trunks in boxes versus in the ground.
I do have a big garden, but these particular species in question can't be safely ground grown in my climate.

These trees will all be shohin sized when "ready" so I will still be alive to enjoy them at that time .
The big sized trees I plan to obtain, will be collected from local forests and mountains, with no need for trunk thickening .

 

[River's Edge]

Probobly a bit of a daft question, but I don't know the answer, so here it goes;

I have several trees in sizeable grow out boxes to develop trunk size and taper.
(Species in question: azalea, mulberry, ficus, cherry, elm & maple.)

When I'm happy with the trunks;
- should the trees still remain in the big boxes until the branches are all developed too?
- or will branches develop just as well in a smaller sized training pot or even in a regular bonsai pot?

The approach that makes the most sense in my view as a grower is to use the best growing method at your disposal to develop the trunk and primary branches before reducing the space for root development. After that the focus is more on refinement and moving to a smaller size and easier to handle environment makes sense. So i stick with suitable size grow boxes or grow beds, or in the ground until the primary branches are the appropriate thickness and are being reduced for secondary and or tertiary branching in most cases. For Shohin trees, controlling the growth is critical for design so the changeover comes more quickly with most species.

 

[Tieball]

Good advice from @Riversedgebonsai above.

I keep trees in the grow box environment as long as needed. I like boxes. Try....not to be in a hurry to put the trees in smaller pots until the trees really are ready and you have rehearsed the care abilities for small containers. Just for rehearsal you might get a not-so-great tree....grow it like your other trees....except about a season or two ahead of moving your best trees to smaller containers...move this tree to the next smaller size and get a handle on smaller container care for a season or two. It’s actually kind of fun....and a good opportunity to see results of root pruning, new growth and watering methods. Good learning time. I’ve moved trees in stages...I’ve moved from a larger wooden box to a flatter and smaller wooden box. I think the flatter box stage has been the most helpful. The wooden boxes to me are excellent insulators over winter....and they just work the best for me.

Also. I’ve moved trees from ground growing...with drastic trunk and root cutting...to wooden boxes....grow and stabilize a season....then back to the ground...then finally back to a somewhat smaller wooden box than the first box....to build out branching. Once I start branch development the trees stay in the boxes. If that makes sense.

 

[Anthony]

Ingvill,

it is supposed to be for say 48.3 Km x 80.5 km, you
should find 30 to 50 natives useful for Bonsai.

With us down here at 30 ish natives, the natives
are out performing the imports. Now to find the other
20 and let the younger ones do the experiments

Readings recently suggest for hobbyist a max around
30 to 40 trees.
Exchanging trees to improve.

So you can ground grow and get excellent results.
I wish you much happiness finding those natives.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[defra]

IMO
Bonsai starts with basics
Divided in three important aspects in the following order:

1. Nebari
2. Trunk
3. Primary branches

After the base is set next phase can be started in a smaller training pot/box but not as small as the final pot it will be in eventualy.
since there still must be room for development and that means growth and growth means root growth so some room for that is important.

So to answer your question:
Keep them in the boxes untill your primary branches are in place.

 

[Ingvill]

Thanks a lot guys!
Good explanations and information here, which is very much appreciated

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks a lot guys!
Good explanations and information here, which is very much appreciated

One aspect that was not mentioned but can make a huge difference. Build the boxes to suit the species. Better results are obtained when the different growth requirements of certain species are taken into account. For example grow boxes for JBP should be at least 4 1/2 inches deep. Chojubai under development require even deeper containers, Whereas Japanese maples and some other deciduous can benefit from the flatter shallower containers in development.
So once again it depends and one size does not suit all!
Best in Bonsai

 

[Ingvill]

That's a very good point @Riversedgebonsai
I will need to reconsider my Chojubai's current box for next repotting then, thank you!

 

[River's Edge]

That's a very good point @Riversedgebonsai
I will need to reconsider my Chojubai's current box for next repotting then, thank you!

When I Switched chojubai to much deeper containers the result was dramatic! I now grow the cuttings in 1 gallon pots for the first two years, then 3 gallon for the next three years, switch to boxes after that when actually reducing the depth to 6 inches and the wiring work begins in earnest. Keep in mind the approach i have chosen is to wire 3 to 4 inches at a time. This is due to the cutback process and wishing to remove the thorns produced on the extensions. Once the clump is sizeable then smaller containers make the wireing easier and also help manage the extensions. By then the root ball is well established and handles the shallower containers without adversely affecting the health.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I found an interesting Youtube video on thickening bonsai trunks and branches that you might want to look at:

 

[River's Edge]

I found an interesting Youtube video on thickening bonsai trunks and branches that you might want to look at:

LOL it is interesting that you would post this concept. I guess you felt that it was appropriate for Chojubai at some stage. And it is primarily for single trunk rather than clump style. Of course wiring a short portion and letting it grow until the desired thickness is obtained then cutting back to the short portion simply illustrates that one understands that concept.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Not really, the OP listed a number of species that she has in grow boxes to thicken their trunks.

 

[Ingvill]

Yes that's right, I have several different species in grow out boxes.
I just had no idea I need to treat the Chojubai a little different, I will definetly get a deeper box next.
My Chojubai is a twin trunk. It had a huge and well established root system that I cut back very, very hard this spring.
New roots are growing like crazy....to a point where I'm thinking how is this thing ever gonna fit in a shohin sized pot....lol.

Thank you for the video link @Cofga, a lot of good info there !