Growing out Japanese white pine

b3bowen

Mame
Messages
201
Reaction score
271
Location
Greensboro, NC
USDA Zone
7
Here are two pictures of Japanese white pines that I have grown out from one year seedlings (own roots). They were in containers, but I planted them in the ground about two years ago to try to get them growing faster. The trunks, are now about a half inch thick, and the trees are about a foot tall. So not very big. Some of this may be because I’m working on a weeker pine (not grafted) and I believe I’m in a relatively marginal zone for growing it. However both trees were of pretty equal vigor last year. This spring, soon before candles began to extend, I dug one up, placed it on top of a board, and Then re-planted it. I did not appear to cut any major roots and I did not trim the root system at all, I just spread it flat. I did not comb out the roots and the soil that was removed was just loose soil that fell freely from the roots. I replanted in the same location it was already in. This tree, seems to be barely struggling by at this point. The tree that was not touched is growing very strongly.

Transplanted tree:
259797



Untouched tree:
259798

So, I know I’m not supposed to bare root a pine, so what is the best way to go from a ground grown white pine to a container to grow it out in?

I’m not going to touch the weeker tree until I see it become more healthy. The soil is so loose around the other pine, that I suspect it will be hard to keep it around the roots when dig up in the spring...? ( would fall be better)?

I know people who collect, will put pines in 100% pumice, but here in the south/hot I’m not sure it would fare very well in that mixture without watering all the time.

Any suggestions on getting the second pine from The ground to a Grow box would be very much appreciated.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,869
Reaction score
7,427
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
I see a LOT of shade behind these. Perhaps therein lies any issue with either, particularly any legginess.
Your experience with the 1st one would make anyone ansy about future digs and transitioning soils.
Here's what I personally would do to transition. 1st find full Sun all day location. Dig in the SPRING as you did
and do cut roots back and do untangle, but keep all the ball of soil, and blend it with soil from the newer more sunny
location, and also good 1/4" bonsai soil aggregate, like pumice and lava rock. Plant on an 18" tile from a big box store
they're pretty cheap, and water in with Dyna Gro K-L-N every couple weeks while it sets new feet.
Be sure the area is draining, sloped or raised, and not holding water in a bowl.
I mean they're not done growing out in the ground yet. You've yet to reduce the trunk and roots over a few more years
before you transition to an oversized pot, and then downsizing that pot another time. Otherwise, it will stunt the girth.
If you must stunt the girth and remove from the ground for whatever reason, again, in Spring as before, and blend
current root ball soil with 1/4" bonsai soil, and do rake out the roots, with some reduction to begin tightening up the root mass.
 

b3bowen

Mame
Messages
201
Reaction score
271
Location
Greensboro, NC
USDA Zone
7
I see a LOT of shade behind these. Perhaps therein lies any issue with either, particularly any legginess.
Your experience with the 1st one would make anyone ansy about future digs and transitioning soils.
Here's what I personally would do to transition. 1st find full Sun all day location. Dig in the SPRING as you did
and do cut roots back and do untangle, but keep all the ball of soil, and blend it with soil from the newer more sunny
location, and also good 1/4" bonsai soil aggregate, like pumice and lava rock. Plant on an 18" tile from a big box store
they're pretty cheap, and water in with Dyna Gro K-L-N every couple weeks while it sets new feet.
Be sure the area is draining, sloped or raised, and not holding water in a bowl.
I mean they're not done growing out in the ground yet. You've yet to reduce the trunk and roots over a few more years
before you transition to an oversized pot, and then downsizing that pot another time. Otherwise, it will stunt the girth.
If you must stunt the girth and remove from the ground for whatever reason, again, in Spring as before, and blend
current root ball soil with 1/4" bonsai soil, and do rake out the roots, with some reduction to begin tightening up the root mass.

I definitely agree that I could find a better spot for these two with more sun. The question is, would you leave the weaker tree in a sub optimal spot, or risk it and move it next spring. Thank you for the very detailed response.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,869
Reaction score
7,427
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
I definitely agree that I could find a better spot for these two with more sun. The question is, would you leave the weaker tree in a sub optimal spot, or risk it and move it next spring. Thank you for the very detailed response.
Well, get @Adair M in here to comment with his WP expertise.
Short answer YES. Sunlight = vigour. Moving them will delay any topside reductions for now.
What is the soil like where they are? Is it compacted, stays moist, all the info you can put out there will help.

I see Ginko in full shade behind these it appears, so my guess is that full Sun is in short supply there?
I like the 2nd tree, 1/2 top reduction and branch internodes show possibilities. Trees both would have shorter internodes
in full Sun and be bushier on the 1st one. Springtime...:) 3 feet out from the tree laterally, what's the soil like?
Another issue could be soil pH, but Sun 1st.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I don’t grow out seedlings, I start with larger material. I don’t care for JWP seedlings because the foliage is poor. All the good JWP you see are grafts! Or Kokonoe or Zuisho which can be propagated via layering.

That said...

If you’re going to plant these in a grow box, you don’t need to plant on a tile. The bottom of the box works just as well.

When you dig these up, bare root one side of the root ball, leave the other side intact. Then two years later, bare root the other side.

They would love a pumice based mix.

When you’re growing out, fertilize as you wish. You don’t have to worry about getting too long of needles.

Wire movement into them this fall, while they are still in the ground. When you dig them next spring, move them wire and all into the box.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,869
Reaction score
7,427
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
If you’re going to plant these in a grow box, you don’t need to plant on a tile. The bottom of the box works just as well.
I know with the 2 equal sized dwarf EWP I grew out, one in a silly oversized ceramic pot, and one in the ground
that the one in the ground 10 years later had 3X the girth as the one grown out in a large pot.
I fully trust in ground. It is cooler on the roots and more forgiving particularly when traveling.
I dare say in zone 7 that not a lot of Winter protection is required but the ground again is more forgiving.
Thing with the ground is, if you get too many complacent years under its' belt, the style gets beyond recovery.
You must still lift the tree every so many years and root prune, and you must still style to some extent
particularly when it comes to initiating back budding and keeping interior growth. These things are easier in a box
but I still trust in Earth.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I know with the 2 equal sized dwarf EWP I grew out, one in a silly oversized ceramic pot, and one in the ground
that the one in the ground 10 years later had 3X the girth as the one grown out in a large pot.
I fully trust in ground. It is cooler on the roots and more forgiving particularly when traveling.
I dare say in zone 7 that not a lot of Winter protection is required but the ground again is more forgiving.
Thing with the ground is, if you get too many complacent years under its' belt, the style gets beyond recovery.
You must still lift the tree every so many years and root prune, and you must still style to some extent
particularly when it comes to initiating back budding and keeping interior growth. These things are easier in a box
but I still trust in Earth.
Yes, for maximum growth, keep it in the ground. I believe I read in the OP’s post he wanted to transfer them to a grow box. I structured my reply accordingly.
 

Shibui

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,545
Reaction score
15,224
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
With young trees like these seedlings there is usually no problem with bare rooting so if the soil falls off just transplant anyway. I normally just give them a shake to dislodge most of the soil but don't go all out to wash everything off. Getting rid of the soil at the start saves it causing problems in the pots and having to get rid of it later.
You can leave the weak one there to get weaker or you can transplant it now to better conditions so it can gain strength. If it does happen to die after transplant (I don't think that's likely) that's no different to having it die in the ground from lack of light and root competition. IMHO I think it has a far better chance by transplanting.
 

Silentrunning

Chumono
Messages
676
Reaction score
1,036
Location
Warrenton North Carolina
USDA Zone
7a
Seeing that you too are from North Carolina I would suggest you get the ground around the root base nice and moist before removal. If we have a dry winter like we did 2 years ago, you will bare root it the second you pull it out of the ground.
 

b3bowen

Mame
Messages
201
Reaction score
271
Location
Greensboro, NC
USDA Zone
7
Thank you all for such good information. I think the general consensus is that the problem lies with the trees current growing conditions, not the transplanting that I did in the first place. The bed that these are in, it’s about 20‘ x 20‘. The back of the bed Gets primarily indirect light (some azaleas, maples, beech). In the front of the bed I have my Pines, ginkgo, cherry, and crab apples. The front of the bed receives direct sun daily, from about 10:30 - 4 pm (The shady pictures above were taken in the evening). The soil is great and has been amended with much mulch, turface, sand,De, grit etc over time. All this year, I have been blaming the lack of vigor on transplanting, but now that I observe closely, there is a red Japanese maple, that shades this pine more than the other.

Hopefully, addressing the lighting problem will clear things up.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,869
Reaction score
7,427
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
amended with much mulch, turface, sand,De, grit etc over time.
You have 3 med to high moisture retentive amendments in this "incomplete list" ("etc").
DE being the most retentive, then mulch and turface.

Over time, pH will drop in an organic situation as organics break down,

but yeh I agree with you, location and conditions.

My conifers pretty much get Sun from
the beginning to the end of any effective UV on the S side of the house.
I understand not everybody can provide such, and it is difficult balancing moisture for me
as I put off yet another year of trusting automated watering. I may need shade cloth actually
for the latest exposure from 3pm on, but my current deck is not really conducive for such.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I give my JWP full sun, dawn to dusk in NE Georgia. I water once a day, sometimes twice. But I use a totally inorganic, fast draining soil. NO organic. No mulch, no turface, no grit, no DE, no sand, either. It’s: equal parts pumice, lava (scoria), akadama. You can hate on it all you want, but my pines thrive!
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Sunlight, free draining soil, dry feet, happy pines!
“Dry feet” does NOT mean you have to “let the soil dry out” between waterings. I never do that. It just means the soil should never get soggy. The easiest way to do that is use inorganic soil, properly sieved.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,337
Reaction score
23,254
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
Follow Adair's advice.

BUT the transplanting DEFINITELY contributed to slower growing for the weaker tree. Any root disturbance will slow growth, and severe root disturbance can slow growth for more than one growing season. I would not transplant this tree a second time in less than 12 months from the first. Preferably 24 months.

Yes, shade also slows growth, and sun from 10:30 to 4 pm is only 5 hours, 30 minutes of sun, which means for a 12 hour day the tree is in shade for 7 hours. That is NOT full sun, white pines like more sun than 5 hours daily. In summer, we have near a 16 hour or so day, this would mean your tree is in shade 10.5 hours a day. See the issue?

JWP need more than 50% of the potential full sun every day, they are happiest around 75%. They are more shade tolerant than other pines, but they still need a fair amount of sun.
 

b3bowen

Mame
Messages
201
Reaction score
271
Location
Greensboro, NC
USDA Zone
7
Based on this discussion, I also suspect that my soil stays to moist as
@Japonicus pointed out. So clearly, I need better soil, and better sunshine. Now, let’s say that I move the weaker tree to a container with better substrate,given the fact that too much shade, and moisture retentive soil is eventually going to kill it. I know that the soil is very loose and much of it is going to fall off when I transplant the tree. Should I make a concerted effort to retain half of the soil so that The tree is not bare rooted, or let the soil fall off that easily falls off (sounds like @Shibui is in favor of that).

Given the discussion of my soil conditions, do people still favor moving the weaker tree in spring, or now. (Again I see @Shibui votes now.)

Given that the stronger tree looks leggy but healthy, I think waiting till spring is its best option. But again I’m open to any of your opinions.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to provide this input, and hope that you’re doing so will help save this pine.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Wait until spring. The “never bare root” thing doesn’t need to be taken literally. Pines can survive being bare rooted. They just prefer not to be bare rooted. Just try not to damage the fine hair roots.

JWP grow high in the mountains. They are up there in the sun. But, being in the mountains, they can grow in a valley, or the sun can go behind a neighboring mountain peak, so their day can be somewhat shorter than if they were in a flat field.

I have had far better success with JWP since I started using Boon Mix. I believe it has the qualities of fast drying, openness, and just enough water retention that pines love.

When I hear about people having trouble with pines, it’s almost always due to one of two things: 1) they revive too much foliage at one time; or, 2) they’re using poor soil. Or both. Often, it’s still in the soil they purchased it in, which, 99 times out of a hundred, is NOT bonsai soil.

Whenever I get a new pine, if i am at all unsure of the soil, I will repot ASAP. By ASAP, I mean the next repotting season. Unless, it’s not draining or something. (And if that’s the case, it’s unlikely it would look healthy, and therefore, it’s unlikely I would buy it in the first place).


For example, if I buy a tree from Julian Adams, I know he uses straight turface. It works ok for him, and his watering system. I would (and have) performed a half bare root repot the following spring.
 

b3bowen

Mame
Messages
201
Reaction score
271
Location
Greensboro, NC
USDA Zone
7
Again, thank you all so much. I will hold off on doing anything until spring.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,709
Reaction score
12,609
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
“Dry feet” does NOT mean you have to “let the soil dry out” between waterings. I never do that. It just means the soil should never get soggy. The easiest way to do that is use inorganic soil, properly sieved.
Correct, i guess it is dangerous to assume others understand what a certain phrase means:eek:.
 
Top Bottom