They are on my old computer and for some reason I can't upload them!
I'm going to start digging soon. I'll take some pics.
I'm going to start digging soon. I'll take some pics.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Interesting Michael, I wonder how many trees that don't have surface roots, end up with
surface roots.
Tamarinds, don't have surface roots, they do continue to expand their trunk and develop lumps and bumps.
as well as flake the bark.
Yet you often see tamarinds with - somewhat forced surface roots.
Good Day
Anthony
surface roots.
Tamarinds, don't have surface roots, they do continue to expand their trunk and develop lumps and bumps.
as well as flake the bark.
Yet you often see tamarinds with - somewhat forced surface roots.
Good Day
Anthony
Yes, very good info you gave in previous post.
It brings in to question the nebari technique of ebihara though, which seems to work. So this is conflicting information.
I'm interested to know why it works there but not here or in your experience? Unless I'm getting something mixed up.
Michael, most of what you stated is true. But then again, most people (at least here) don't understand how to do proper rootwork. Especially about how to get under the base of the trunk and eliminate the downward growing roots.
A couple of things: Japanese Maples grown in the ground can get a fungus, especially if someone is growing tomatoes nearby. So, they really ought to be developed using grow boxes. Tridents can he ground grown. But, they are prone to developing one or two very heavy roots that can make the nebari one sided.
Tiles (or boards) are a tool that can be useful. Certainly not a requirement.
I don't understand this question.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Fungal problems with acer palmatum are more an issue of pruning tool contamination than anything else.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ebihara-maples.18215/
Ebihara.
Using this technique to great effectiveness.
But you described it being not useful at all. So I wanted to know how that's possible, when it's been described and is well known as working well.
Oh sure if you like the plate nebari, use it. Personally I can't stand them. To me it's just another kitsch Asian fad.
Oh, no I agree with you.. although I'd love one of those trees, the nebari created is too extreme. Personally I'd use the technique but maybe for only half the time or less..
The large clump, melted base isn't attractive to me personally.
Just wondered how come your experience was very contrast to this technique and the experience people have had with it.
My point is that it is not needed to develop an outstanding nebari, so why bother with it. Remember also that just because there is a tile under the roots, does not stop them (those under the trunk) from growing and does not negate the need to cut them off.
I thought it does discourage roots from growing straight down? At least discourage so they are small and more energy goes in to the other ones being forced out the side.
That's fair enough. I'm sure it is not needed, but I feel like it is a valuable technique, it's certainly picked up fame among the community and is seen as a great way.
I don't need a car to travel 10 miles, but it sure beats walking.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Perhaps this is an example of a case of "operator error", i.e. MichaelS doesn't know how or when to apply the technique? Or perhaps just another example of his tendency to make blanket statements against whatever technique or style or idea someone else is advocating, because that's what he does.
I think as with most things, the answer is somewhere in the grey zone. If you take a very young seedling and essentially smash it down on a board, perhaps you will wind up with a somewhat unnatural looking root system that, instead of flaring out at the base, shoots straight off at a 90 deg angle from the trunk (without much lower trunk flare). I don't know if this would happen, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone else claim that it happens...but one can imagine it might. On the other hand, if you take a tree with a root system that is a little more developed, with the roots coming off the trunk at a downward angle (but not too severe), then plant that on top of a board...I think you would maintain/enhance the base flare while establishing more horizontal surface roots outside of that flare zone. Which is what we want for bonsai. Note, I'm not talking about the dinner plate style that I really don't like, that is just an extreme result that one can obtain if desired.
I have planted trees on boards and tiles both in the ground and in pots. What happens is that any downward roots are forced to grow horizontally until they reach the edge of the board; then they dive down. In the ground, this eliminates roots directly under the trunk that go deep and make digging more difficult. You'll still have to remove them when you dig the tree but I find it easier to dig as the "diving" roots are further from the trunk.
I think as with most things, the answer is somewhere in the grey zone. If you take a very young seedling and essentially smash it down on a board, perhaps you will wind up with a somewhat unnatural looking root system that, instead of flaring out at the base, shoots straight off at a 90 deg angle from the trunk (without much lower trunk flare). I don't know if this would happen, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone else claim that it happens...but one can imagine it might. On the other hand, if you take a tree with a root system that is a little more developed, with the roots coming off the trunk at a downward angle (but not too severe), then plant that on top of a board...I think you would maintain/enhance the base flare while establishing more horizontal surface roots outside of that flare zone. Which is what we want for bonsai. Note, I'm not talking about the dinner plate style that I really don't like, that is just an extreme result that one can obtain if desired.
I have planted trees on boards and tiles both in the ground and in pots. What happens is that any downward roots are forced to grow horizontally until they reach the edge of the board; then they dive down. In the ground, this eliminates roots directly under the trunk that go deep and make digging more difficult. You'll still have to remove them when you dig the tree but I find it easier to dig as the "diving" roots are further from the trunk.
Just another update on what the grounds look like. Finally had a long enough stretch of dry spell that I felt comfortable tilling the ground before mixing in the haydite. The Bobcat helped a lot... and wasn't too much cost to rent for the day. One step closer to getting something planted in my new growing grounds 
Tilling the ground
Switched over to the bucket
Load by load we cover the area, and try to level it out best we can by dragging the bucket backwards
Tilling it in
Result. You can see its not a perfect distribution, but for the most part we got a fairly even mix across the whole garden. Looking forward to the next step. Transplanting a few things into it, using the tiles, laying down my weed barrier cloths and then just letting things go wild for a few years
Tilling the ground
Switched over to the bucket
Load by load we cover the area, and try to level it out best we can by dragging the bucket backwards
Tilling it in
Result. You can see its not a perfect distribution, but for the most part we got a fairly even mix across the whole garden. Looking forward to the next step. Transplanting a few things into it, using the tiles, laying down my weed barrier cloths and then just letting things go wild for a few years
Saddler
Chumono
Having a plot like that is a dream of mine. And to win the lottery so I have enough hours to be able to use it all. hmmm what is the lotto max at this week?
Rushing to replant the weekend before my wedding because I know as I'm away in Ireland for honeymoon the buds would start to open and I didn't want to wait another whole year to make use of the bonsai growing grounds!
Here they are at the end of the year last fall.
Preparing the space
With help from the Parents and fiancee we moved all of the tridents and a few of the red and black pines. Here we are threading (carefully) the tridents some tiles I had drilled holes through.
Threading
Planted tile and all back into the ground, being sure to carefully backfill under the tiles to make sure the soil mixture was tight around the roots (this was tricky and I'm kind of crossing my fingers we did it well)
Example 1
Example 2
Then the weed barrier cloth was cut and brought up as close as possible to the trunks to reduce weed competition.
Here's to hoping for happy growth when we arrive home. Come on luck of the Irish!
Here they are at the end of the year last fall.
Preparing the space
With help from the Parents and fiancee we moved all of the tridents and a few of the red and black pines. Here we are threading (carefully) the tridents some tiles I had drilled holes through.
Threading
Planted tile and all back into the ground, being sure to carefully backfill under the tiles to make sure the soil mixture was tight around the roots (this was tricky and I'm kind of crossing my fingers we did it well)
Example 1
Example 2
Then the weed barrier cloth was cut and brought up as close as possible to the trunks to reduce weed competition.
Here's to hoping for happy growth when we arrive home. Come on luck of the Irish!
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dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Looks like a fantastic place and it will be fun in a few years time. Don't forget to wire movement if wanted in the very early stage like i usually do. The black weed barrier makes the soil warmer in summer and speeds root development. It does keep the soil damp at all times and i have the impression that might be the reason some of my acers planted this way suffer from dieback and mold.
Ah, thanks for the heads up on the warning about dieback and mold. I hope that fact that I ammended the soil heavily with haydite to improve the drainage and airflow will assist in reducing this. I'm glad to know that the warmth of the mats may help. Even if it holds a little more water its probably for the better, before ammending the soil it would often dry out so much that it would fissure because of its high clay content, and make rock hard mud clumps.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Seems like you're on the right path...
I was able to move a couple more things from the raised beds into individual pots some replaced in the raised beds, but sitting on top of and will allow the roots to grow out the bottom for a bit. Other previously potted trees were also moved into the garden area in colanders and set above ground.
1. Japanese Maple (about 4 years from seed), previously potted in colander and allowed to grow free in the raised beds.
After a haircut:
Then set back in the ground, to go a few more years of thickening before a hard cutback and hopefully some airlayers off of him.
2. Lots of individual black and red pines potted into individual containers
Others putting into larger colanders and set in the garden. Hopefully to live the transplant, as this will be year 3 from seed for them and they were barerooted in repotting.
1. Japanese Maple (about 4 years from seed), previously potted in colander and allowed to grow free in the raised beds.
After a haircut:
Then set back in the ground, to go a few more years of thickening before a hard cutback and hopefully some airlayers off of him.
2. Lots of individual black and red pines potted into individual containers
Others putting into larger colanders and set in the garden. Hopefully to live the transplant, as this will be year 3 from seed for them and they were barerooted in repotting.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Looks like the trees have enough room to grow. Haven't found colanders here yet... These look like perfect sized.
