Growing Seed to Bonsai

Ris

Shohin
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#22
Anthony is right about why am looking into sending those tridents, even though am not moving back to Trinidad soon I do want to incourage others in studying bonsai there...
 

Anthony

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#23
Ris,

please don't bother. Years ago Khaimraj got milder reactions for Chinese Elms, the Gingko and the Celtis. The idea was that the trees would grow for a few years and then die.
The older heads on IBC can verify this when IBC was an e-mail service.

It is expected that an island in the tropics, is as hot as say Texas in the summer all year long. Takes a while for it to sink in that islands can be cooler in summer, than the mainlands of USA and China.
We have stronger sunlight, but are also breezy and for 6 months low humidity.

Most folk still question that one can grow J.B pines in the tropics. Or that we can record much larger trunk expansions, another example is the Chinese elm.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Eric Group

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#24
Ris,

please don't bother. Years ago Khaimraj got milder reactions for Chinese Elms, the Gingko and the Celtis. The idea was that the trees would grow for a few years and then die.
The older heads on IBC can verify this when IBC was an e-mail service.

It is expected that an island in the tropics, is as hot as say Texas in the summer all year long. Takes a while for it to sink in that islands can be cooler in summer, than the mainlands of USA and China.
We have stronger sunlight, but are also breezy and for 6 months low humidity.

Most folk still question that one can grow J.B pines in the tropics. Or that we can record much larger trunk expansions, another example is the Chinese elm.
Good Day
Anthony
I don't think all this back and forth is necessary... Maybe there is a language barrier here. He has a pretty harsh way of saying it but i think all Smoke is trying to say is "pics or it never happened".

You seem to be writing from the standpoint that everyone here is an informed audience and we all know you, what you have been doing and what you have accomplished, we have all read some article you mention about growing JBP in the Caribean... That isn't the case.

A couple pictures and I think not only would you not get the negative reaction from guys like Al, you might give us all a bit more of an education...
 

Ris

Shohin
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#26
Ris,

please don't bother. Years ago Khaimraj got milder reactions for Chinese Elms, the Gingko and the Celtis. The idea was that the trees would grow for a few years and then die.
The older heads on IBC can verify this when IBC was an e-mail service.

It is expected that an island in the tropics, is as hot as say Texas in the summer all year long. Takes a while for it to sink in that islands can be cooler in summer, than the mainlands of USA and China.
We have stronger sunlight, but are also breezy and for 6 months low humidity.

Most folk still question that one can grow J.B pines in the tropics. Or that we can record much larger trunk expansions, another example is the Chinese elm.
Good Day
Anthony
Ok, no problem :)
 

Smoke

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#27
Eric,

I left an image for Al in post #19, one with a measuring tape in inches.
Satisfied his request.
Good Day
Anthony
The tree in the photo does not even have a two inch trunk. I have been growing tridents for twenty years, do I come across ignorant on this subject or something?

You have showed a picture of "A" trident. That prooves nothing and the trident you showed does not even match the enormous claims you state. If your going to post a picture of a trident at least show something worthy of your claims. You havn't even met the minimum requirements in my mind.

This tree is exactly the size it should be since 1994 in a two gallon pot. You still wish to persue this three inches in a few months thing? I have a hundred seeds in the fridge right now I will send in a heartbeat for you to show us how the magic is done. You only need a few months right, hell the ink on the thread won't be dry by then.
 

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#29
Al,

if you had asked nicely, I would have given you any images that I have.
Since you chose to be cynical, well ..................

The information used for the faster growing was out of Bonsai Today, the articles on J.B.pines, which you are well aquainted with.
They work on other trees as well.
When Ris [ Rishi] comes down, I have made arrangements for him to see.
He can take images and post here.

I tend to treat folk on this group as friends, and was sharing some ideas, as one might do in a group having tea togther.
Sadly.
Good Day
Anthony
Oh come on Anthony-----that's just a dodge! I believe if you had the evidence you would post it and not look for catty little ways to get around someone challenging you. You make friends by being friendly but being honest also helps. Friends don't BS friends.
 
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Ris

Shohin
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#30
The tree in the photo does not even have a two inch trunk. I have been growing tridents for twenty years, do I come across ignorant on this subject or something?

You have showed a picture of "A" trident. That prooves nothing and the trident you showed does not even match the enormous claims you state. If your going to post a picture of a trident at least show something worthy of your claims. You havn't even met the minimum requirements in my mind.

This tree is exactly the size it should be since 1994 in a two gallon pot. You still wish to persue this three inches in a few months thing? I have a hundred seeds in the fridge right now I will send in a heartbeat for you to show us how the magic is done. You only need a few months right, hell the ink on the thread won't be dry by then.
Haha. Made you show the 10k tree just kidding...
 
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#31
The tree in the photo does not even have a two inch trunk. I have been growing tridents for twenty years, do I come across ignorant on this subject or something?

You have showed a picture of "A" trident. That prooves nothing and the trident you showed does not even match the enormous claims you state. If your going to post a picture of a trident at least show something worthy of your claims. You havn't even met the minimum requirements in my mind.

This tree is exactly the size it should be since 1994 in a two gallon pot. You still wish to persue this three inches in a few months thing? I have a hundred seeds in the fridge right now I will send in a heartbeat for you to show us how the magic is done. You only need a few months right, hell the ink on the thread won't be dry by then.
Al,

I challenge you to send me some seeds.
 

Smoke

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#32
Al,

I challenge you to send me some seeds.
The challenge is to grow three inch trunks in a few months. If you can do that I will send you the seeds. If you don't, you must send $100.00 to my paypal.

Still want the seeds?
 
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#33
I accept the seeds but not your stipulations or consequences. I will attempt to see if I have magic soil but if it is just regular soil then ill just make due with nice seedlings.
 
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#34
Hi, Anthony,

I like the idea of growing from seeds as well. I currently have over 400 seeds of various species potted and waiting for spring. While I do still enjoy collecting trees, I can see that living on an island would increase one's appreciation for the necessity to conserve resources. I'm a little confused about the accusation that you have claimed three inches of diameter growth in only a few months, as you have clearly stated:

just work with whips as the trident maple in the first year can grow to 2 or 3 " in trunk down here.
So, if you're growing from a whip to a total of 2 to 3 inches, and the whip is .5 inches to start with, then the total growth in a year (not a few months) would be 1.5 to 2.5 inches. For tree growth on an island with a mild climate such as yours, this does not seem unusual to me. Considering the fact that root growth will continue even when top growth has stopped, and knowing that the thickening of roots radiating from the trunk will inevitably contribute to base diameter, it seems even less unusual.

Trees that I grew in the mountains of southern China between 2011 and late this year saw some pretty nice growth as well, though maybe not quite as much as 2.5 inches in one year. I'll have to see how things compare growing up in Beijing this year.
 

Smoke

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#35
In the beginning, trees got to 3 to 5" trunks more or less by accident. Presently, trees are being grown and trained continuously, you know root, trunk say six branches and at this stage, the trunk will be roughly 1/2 " thick. Takes between 5 to 10 years to do and it only gets better as time goes by.

Good Day
Anthony
A fridge can also be supplied, just work with whips as the trident maple in the first year can grow to 2 or 3 " in trunk down here.

So if it could be shown that a seed/seedling could be designed into something over a period of 5 to 10 years, then the collecting instinct could be perhaps controlled.
Additionally, the design would have to impress and as usual, the big trunk would be needed, since everyone wants a big trunk.

As I said, just sharing.
You can always ask questions.
Good Day
Anthony
Al,


It grew from a whip, purchased in the UK in 1994, and went to around 2 to 3" in under 6 months. Is that something unique?

Thanking you in advance.
Good Day
Anthony
Hi, Anthony,



So, if you're growing from a whip to a total of 2 to 3 inches, and the whip is .5 inches to start with, then the total growth in a year (not a few months) would be 1.5 to 2.5 inches. For tree growth on an island with a mild climate such as yours, this does not seem unusual to me. Considering the fact that root growth will continue even when top growth has stopped, and knowing that the thickening of roots radiating from the trunk will inevitably contribute to base diameter, it seems even less unusual.

Trees that I grew in the mountains of southern China between 2011 and late this year saw some pretty nice growth as well, though maybe not quite as much as 2.5 inches in one year. I'll have to see how things compare growing up in Beijing this year.


Above are the quotes by Anthony in this thread. As you can see Daygan, they are all over the place from trunks by accident to one year to several years to only 1/2" growth in a year. I have no idea what is truth and what is BS and what is just plain fabricated. I call this obfuscation. get enough stories going and no one knows what is going on. Kinda like our Government is currently doing.

These are a couple quotes from the personal thread he started just for me. For Al-The Trident

Post 5
Al,
[ said in a quiet voice ]

it made the trunk size in a few months. After that as far as I know all the effort was in learning how to keep to healthy and we failed.

Boy do you like to argue. First, I never grew the tree, then it could not have that trunk size, and now you find something else, where do you end?

3" is the size of trunk, we use for 15" tall trees, and can fit in the refrigerator, with the other trees.

Or is it that we can grow a 3" trunk in a few months and you cannot?

Remember the Bonsai Today articles?
As I also told you we do not cross 93 deg.F for more than hour and 86 or lower can be our normal, not 108 deg.F
Good Day
Anthony
Post 10
Ny,

the trunk grew to 3" in a few months. The tree was firstly grown as a normal tree, under the shade of a Flacourtia tree and after a few years, entered the winter in the fridge cycle.
Our climate, will cool to 70 deg.F from say 6 p.m to 8 or 9 a.m in the months of sometimes as early as October, but normally November and the trident maple responds to shorter days, then the cooler weather.
[ Pot was a 2 gallon and the basic soil we use for all the trees]

By January 21st or so, it is ready to enter the fridge. It never gets the autumn colour, but the leaves drop.
The coolness is enhanced by placing the tree in the north side of the house, and the stone of the house walls continue to cool the air all day long. The north side of the house is in shade from October until the 26th of February.

Tree was removed from the fridge around April 1st and then buds out in May.

Never experienced leaf burn as reported from Miami.

We have no heatwaves, and mild humidity, even with heavy rainfall, the humidity rarely crosses 80%.

So all that was done was mild extensions, and defoliation once a year as the book says to.

The mistake made was too wet a soil. Will be trying again.

In the UK in Cornwall, Marcus Watts [ IBC ], if memory is correct, has his trident in a green house. Cornwall I believe is a zone 9b.
We are unable to provide the chill to complete the dormancy.
Does this help?
Good Day
Anthony

I hope maybe you can figure what is going on cause this seems pretty crazy to me. You know how criminals get caught? They can't keep their lies straight!
 

Smoke

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#36
Now I don't know about anyone else but just read this line from an Anthony quote above and use a little common sense when you read it.

the trunk grew to 3" in a few months. The tree was firstly grown as a normal tree, under the shade of a Flacourtia tree and after a few years, entered the winter in the fridge cycle.

Does your common sense tell you this is possible? How does a maple growing in a tropical environment mysteriously defy all of the rest of the world and grow to three inches in a few months...and not continue to grow at the rate of three inches every few months for a couple of years? We already know that he can't grow them more than three inches or over 15 inches tall cause they won't fit in the fridge, but only after a few years, meaning no rest period. No wonder they die and no wonder the pictures he showed of the maple look so weak and ready to expire.

Definately not a healthy maple. Not even enough leaves to synthesize leave alone grow a trunk to three inches in a few months.
 

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Anthony

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#37
Vance,

you will notice that I left two images of the tree.

Daygan,

note, I have not said that every tree in our mild climate grows trunks rapidly, just a comment to Ris, on a trident maple.
I leave it all at that.
Good Day
Anthony
 
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#38
Vance,

you will notice that I left two images of the tree.

Daygan,

note, I have not said that every tree in our mild climate grows trunks rapidly, just a comment to Ris, on a trident maple.
I leave it all at that.
Good Day
Anthony
Yes you did leave images, but in my way of looking at things if you post a link to your pictures odds are, I am not going to look at them. Most of the time doing so has turned out to be a waste of time, and in all honesty such was the case here. I think if I can take the time to read your post and make some sort of intelligent response you should be courteous enough to put your pictures up for all to see.

There is a saying: Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Just claiming you've seen Big Foot, or UFO's does not make it so. Making the kind of claims about bonsai you have made are Big Foot claims. Just in case someone is tempted to make the----- What does this have to do with anything? argument? It was a metaphor.
 
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#39
Above are the quotes by Anthony in this thread. As you can see Daygan, they are all over the place from trunks by accident to one year to several years to only 1/2" growth in a year.
Ah, yes, the statement about "a few months" was in the other thread. Still, it grew "to three inches" and not "three inches". The word "to" in that statement is a very important preposition and implies that there was a "from". The "from", as he has now clarified, was a pencil-thick girth - let's approximate and say it was .5 inches. Anthony has also corrected himself and said that the actual final thickness after six months was 2.85 inches. Sometimes people remember incorrectly or exaggerate when re-telling information. I don't fault him for that. It's human nature. So basically, what Anthony is telling us is that for this trident in particular, in the span of six months, it grew about 2.35 inches in diameter.

The accidental girth statement is a comment on initial intent. Anthony did not specify any particular time line for this occurrence. I suppose the circumstances are all over the place because we are talking about multiple trees with different circumstances. Most of the trees that they are growing now are styled as they grow and by the time they reach about 1/2 inch in trunk diameter (growing time unspecified), they have a somewhat developed branch structure. The comment about "5 to 10 years" seems to be regarding the time that it takes the trees to reach a respectable bonsai state, using the aforementioned techniques.

Let's look at the following statement that Anthony made:

the trunk grew to 3" in a few months. The tree was firstly grown as a normal tree, under the shade of a Flacourtia tree and after a few years, entered the winter in the fridge cycle.
From this information, and other information provided elsewhere, we can infer that when they obtained the tree in December, they planted it in the ground and let it grow. At some point soon after it reached approximately three inches in diameter, while it was still in the ground, they began pruning it, so that it didn't grow in diameter significantly after that time. Then, after a few years, someone decided that the tree just might die if it didn't have a proper dormancy, they dug it out of the ground, potted it, and put it in a refrigerator. This does not sound terribly crazy to me.

I understand that the fact that tridents can add 2.35 inches of diameter from a pencil-thick size in Trinidad may be questionable and still not yet verified. I'm content with allowing Anthony to provide evidence of that in his own time.

Regardless, I think this thread was originally about Growing Seed to Bonsai, and not who (or where) the king of speedy trident growth is. What more do you have to say about growing from seed as an alternative to collecting?
 
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#40
Sometimes growing from seed is the only way to get your hands on some interesting material not commonly available--------------? The problem is------ it becomes a problem when we start taking out the tape measures and start boasting proportions more powerful than normal man. If you want to discuss seed culture that's fine, but if you insist on loading up the cart with cow manure then you will get resistance. If you have mastered a technique above and beyond that demonstrated by the members of this forum and you want to share it------then share it. Don't come here and boast all kinds of impossible things and get people all worked up over the appearant absurdity of it just so you can gloat latter. All but two of the White Pines I have left were grown from seed in case someone thinks I know nothing of seed culture.
 
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