growing seedling in pots

[remist17]

I have been thinking about getting some seedlings to grow out along with some smaller trees I already have. The trees I have currently are about ¼” to ¾” in trunk diameter. I know that the best way to put some trunk size is put them in the ground and grow for the next 5 to 15 years. Unfortunately I have really bad soil. It is rocky with clay and drains terrible.

I was thinking about grow pots but I read you need to be careful on the size of the pot compared to the size of the tree. Assuming the trees are smaller in trunk size (1/4”) what size pot would you start growing these in? I have 6”,8”10” plastic bulb pans and 15" Anderson flats.
I also have some 12x12x5 wood boxes I made several years ago. I was thinking the 8” pot to start out with for the first few years.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Poink88]

Have you considered amending your (bad ground) soil? or raised bed maybe?

 

[remist17]

To be honest it would take alot of work to work with the native soil. I thought of raised beds, but was not sure the depth to make them. I also live on the side of a mountain so the location of the beds would different. I would be affraid of the amount of rain runoff that would come into the bed. The back side would basically be level with the ground and the front would be 12 or 24" tall.
Hard to explain how it would look with out actually seeing it.

I figured pots would be best. That way I could monitor them, water and feed with the rest of the trees etc.

 

[cmeg1]

I personally believe every bonsai person should start with at least a section for seedling to grow out and make layers or whatever.I would choose good varieties for bonsai with good fall color that also air layer easy.I would put them in 8" colanders until they have a good root system then plant in the ground and let them go.You could develop air layers on them if you do not feel like messing with the ground roots in the future.
Some trees bonsai themselves from seed quite rapidly for smaller bonsai if you do not want to grow them all out.I grow Zelkova brooms from seed.And I also like Japanese maple air layers for smaller bonsai.I just bought a nursery tree and am getting about ten layers from it.Not just any Japanese maple though.It is a shishigashira type dwarf with very short internodes.I think making small trees and layering and propogating is a great side to bonsai.Well, almost the only side of bonsai for me,though I do have a few larger projects.
Here is my zelkova seed endeavors and maple layer and a montage of zelkova layer options.I am going to have a mess of these.

 

[Poink88]

To be honest it would take alot of work to work with the native soil. I thought of raised beds, but was not sure the depth to make them. I also live on the side of a mountain so the location of the beds would different. I would be affraid of the amount of rain runoff that would come into the bed. The back side would basically be level with the ground and the front would be 12 or 24" tall.
Hard to explain how it would look with out actually seeing it.

I figured pots would be best. That way I could monitor them, water and feed with the rest of the trees etc.

Pots will surely be easier but won't give you the same results.

Did lots of retaining wall work (almost like terraces) so I can see what you mean...you can bench it but that too requires work.

What plants are you planning to get? Depending on what it is, with your pots, I will use the 10" bulb pots. Bigger pots is only bad if you do not know how to monitor your water and/or if you have bad soil....or if your plant have really sensitive root system.

Good luck!

 

[Nybonsai12]

As cmeg said, colanders or pond baskets about 8 inches are a great place to start since you don't want to put in the ground.

With the colanders you get the benefit of excellent drainage provided your soil is good since water will run through. And you get to control roots as opposed to a tree being in the ground.

I think there are several but can't recall the specific threads regarding forum members growing pine seedlings in colanders. There is an article in the Bonsai Today Pines book showing how good growth was obtained in only a few years via the use of colanders. I'll try to find the threads here though and post up if I do.

 

[remist17]

Trees im looking to grow:
Elm/ maple / mulberry

Has anyone used root pouches? These seem to be pots made mesh type walls.

 

[lordy]

Trees im looking to grow:
Elm/ maple / mulberry

Has anyone used root pouches? These seem to be pots made mesh type walls.

Never used them myself, however Meehan's sells pretty nice material in them. I bought a San Jose Juni in one from Martha. I'm a fan of Meehan's methods. They produce good results.

 

[remist17]

I just got a elm from Martha yesterday. My first larger tree purchase. To think about it I did see them when I was there in the fall.

 

[Eric Schrader]

Trees im looking to grow:
Elm/ maple / mulberry

Has anyone used root pouches? These seem to be pots made mesh type walls.

I use colanders/pond baskets primarily for pines;I've tried other species in them with less success. The two oak species that I tried managed to make circling roots despite the container but grew so slowly on the top that the whole thing was useless anyway.

The three species that you list would grow better in wooden boxes in my experience than in colanders or pond baskets. I've done both boxes and baskets with Elm and Japanese and Trident Maple. Japanese Maples seem to like wooden boxes, the ones in baskets had burned leaves and didn't grow hardly at all. Elms and tridents seem to tolerate baskets okay in my climate but I'm not convinced that there is any advantage to using them. The roots have a tendency to form knobs on tridents, elms grow more slowly in baskets and don't seem to form significant nebari. Tridents in particular will achieve astounding results in a short period of ground growth. (like 1-3 years!)

If you must use an air-pruning container I'd recommend 9" pond baskets over mesh fabric pots because of the rigidity. The mesh fabric pots are flexible so you could cause disturbance to the roots when moving the containers. They're really designed for growing marijuana which has a short growth cycle, I don't think any commercial tree growers use them but I could be wrong.

 

[daygan]

I've had what I feel to be good results with elms in colanders and pots in a 9a hardiness zone. Below are two examples:

[table="width: 800, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]

December 8, 2011 - Elm collected in Beijing - perhaps Siberian Elm. (the sapling circled in red hidden behind another sapling in the foreground)

Grown in a pot in 2012, and in a colander in 2013.
[/td]
[td]

November 23, 2013


[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]

March 12, 2012. Ulmus Parvifolia

Grown in a colander in 2012 and an oversized pot in 2013.
[/td]
[td]

November 23, 2013[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

 

[remist17]

thank you all for the information. I guess the best thing to do is plant some in wood boxes, some in pots and some in the ground. See what happens and then I will know what is the best for my area.

now just to locate some material to grow that is not costing alot.

 

[daygan]

If your goal is to grow from seedlings, you can always collect seeds and young seedlings of native trees for free in your area. Small seedlings, I find, are very easy to collect successfully, as their root systems are smaller and easier to dig up in entirety or with minimal loss. The elms I posted above were both collected in the summer (not the time typically considered ideal for collection or root work).

 

[Poink88]

I was trying to attach this yesterday but won't let me. Just a sketch (rough idea) on how to make a grow bed on a sloped ground. You can trick it out or modify as you wish.

 

[Poink88]

now just to locate some material to grow that is not costing alot.

- Collect what is locally available
- Buy a larger stock and propagate via cuttings or layering
- Seeds or seedlings.

Just a friendly reminder that IF you will put any effort on this, plan and make sure you reap good returns for your efforts. Free & cheap stuff is good...BUT if it is not going to yield superior materials in the future...ask yourself if it is worthy now (not later).

A more expensive but superior stock (even just a seedling) may be the only way to go. Remember...Quality over quantity. (this coming from a guy with 150 so-so stumps LOL--seriously, I am purging some now because of my earlier mistake that others told me not to do to begin with )

 

[Vance Wood]

What kind of soil are you using and have give it any thought other than it's dirt?