thanks for the comments, all. for anthony. the larger measures about 25" across the roots and about 38" high. the other is maybe 20 "across the bottom and a little over 3 feet tall. both are far below their potential. pruning with hedge clippers doesn't help. age is only a guess. I've had these for about 15 years and were already this size when collected. could be 30 - 50 years old? the trees are sitting on salvaged cement pots headed for the landfill.