Guidance for Kotohime

[Adair M]

Oh and the pot is the second one I ever made... I like the glaze but not the pot so much. Its big so thats why I used it.

You made the pot? That's cool!


It is, unfortunately , the wrong shape. Since you basically bare rooted the tree, it should have gone into a shallower, wider pot. I know you put a tile in there. I question how effective it will be to create a flat root system. From what I can see, the tile is maybe half way down in the pot? Then you put soil on it, and then placed the tree and the big glob of roots on it, and back filled with soil? Is it wired in?

If it not wired in, the tree will be wobbly in the pot and easily dislodged.

Using a tile is usually done when planting in the ground. In a pot, a board is better. Run a screw up thru the bottom of the board and up into the bottom of the trunk, firmly securing the tree to the board. That way, the tree can't push itself up as the roots grow down. Then bury the board an inch or so under the soil. The board is wired to the pot.

 

[Adair M]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about:



Please note: when I was doing this, in my haste to make a picture, I forgot to put tie down wires in the pot! The two big screws on either side of the tree are there to tie the board down to the pot. The tree is screwed onto the board.

So, after I snapped this picture, I lifted the tree and board out, dumped the soil out, and ran wire up from the bottom of the pot's drain holes. Then put some soil back in, set the board/tree back on, wired the board down, then back filled with soil. The bottom of gene tree is buried about an inch under the soil. You could not see the tops of the two screws when it was done.

 

[Tieball]

I may be off base...but doesn't the right-depth pot provide all the flat surface below a tree to keep the roots flat?....and growing horizontal? Adding a board in a pot may create, in my mind anyway, an uncontrolled circling of the roots below the board...then circling around the pot. A picture of a mess below the board sticks in my head. A more shallow pot may accomplish a better result. I'd consider a soil mound below the tree to elevate the roots slightly. I'm trying to understand why a board or tile is needed inside a pot....unless it's to anchor thin roots because wired-down won't work.

Not the same as your situation. I've put young trees with lightweight roots in grow boxes before. I simply anchor the entire tree and roots down with heavier rocks on the soil surface that surrounds the trunk. It's worked. For me. After some time of good growth above ground I know the roots below are growing and multiplying to secure the tree. I begin to remove the rocks. I usually leave one or two rocks....seems to make me feel better when the winds blow.

I do understand the working of the screwing of the board to the bottom of the tree mentioned. Once soil goes in and the wiring of the board to the pot happens the tree should be secure. Perhaps I have just never tried a board in a pot...so I'm left wondering how it works below ground.

I use the rocks a lot when ground growing also.....I let the roots grow to secure the tree in the ground and after some time, in the first growing season, I remove all the rocks.

 

[JoeR]

You made the pot? That's cool!


It is, unfortunately , the wrong shape. Since you basically bare rooted the tree, it should have gone into a shallower, wider pot. I know you put a tile in there. I question how effective it will be to create a flat root system. From what I can see, the tile is maybe half way down in the pot? Then you put soil on it, and then placed the tree and the big glob of roots on it, and back filled with soil? Is it wired in?

If it not wired in, the tree will be wobbly in the pot and easily dislodged.

Using a tile is usually done when planting in the ground. In a pot, a board is better. Run a screw up thru the bottom of the board and up into the bottom of the trunk, firmly securing the tree to the board. That way, the tree can't push itself up as the roots grow down. Then bury the board an inch or so under the soil. The board is wired to the pot.

I tied it down very secure, doesnt budge at all.


I originally selected this pot because I did not expect to be able to make the roots as flat as I did. I was expecting to have to need a deep pot, and I ended up not needing it. The pot is not as deep as it appears, its only 4" deep.


I also dont have any big shallow pots....


I put a scoop of soil down, then the tile, then tied it down very well, then filled and worked the soil in.


Theres no way I could screw it to a board, its too small! Why is a board better than a tile in a pot anyway?


Again thanks Adair.

 

[JoeR]

I may be off base...but doesn't the right-depth pot provide all the flat surface below a tree to keep the roots flat?....and growing horizontal? Adding a board in a pot may create, in my mind anyway, an uncontrolled circling of the roots below the board...then circling around the pot. A picture of a mess below the board sticks in my head. A more shallow pot may accomplish a better result. I'd consider a soil mound below the tree to elevate the roots slightly. I'm trying to understand why a board or tile is needed inside a pot....unless it's to anchor thin roots because wired-down won't work.

Not the same as your situation. I've put young trees with lightweight roots in grow boxes before. I simply anchor the entire tree and roots down with heavier rocks on the soil surface that surrounds the trunk. It's worked. For me. After some time of good growth above ground I know the roots below are growing and multiplying to secure the tree. I begin to remove the rocks. I usually leave one or two rocks....seems to make me feel better when the winds blow.

I do understand the working of the screwing of the board to the bottom of the tree mentioned. Once soil goes in and the wiring of the board to the pot happens the tree should be secure. Perhaps I have just never tried a board in a pot...so I'm left wondering how it works below ground.

I use the rocks a lot when ground growing also.....I let the roots grow to secure the tree in the ground and after some time, in the first growing season, I remove all the rocks.

You have a good point, and I do know of people who place it securely on the bottom of the pot instead.


It very well could make a mess of roots under there, we will see next year. I guess I dont see how it would make any more of a mess of roots than putting a tree in a large nursery can. Though,

 

[sorce]

A picture of a mess below the board sticks in my head.

That sure is what happens....
But you're cutting all that mess off every year anyhow.

I think the key is to put it on a board that is slightly smaller than the final pot.

And not cutting back smaller roots....
I keep getting 1 or 2 roots that go huge and do the deed, rather than an even growth, but that's ficus.

Sorce

 

[Dav4]

That sure is what happens....
But you're cutting all that mess off every year anyhow.

I think the key is to put it on a board that is slightly smaller than the final pot.

And not cutting back smaller roots....
I keep getting 1 or 2 roots that go huge and do the deed, rather than an even growth, but that's ficus.

Sorce

Bam! I've just started using this technique, but my thoughts are that the only roots that matter to the future design are the ones coming directly off the trunk sitting on the board. You need the board to be sitting on soil because you want the roots to run and grow. Every re-pot, the mess under the board goes away and you start over again.

 

[sorce]

Bam!

Cool!

I hope you got to "BAM" your yard project sitting back with a cold one!

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

Bam! I've just started using this technique, but my thoughts are that the only roots that matter to the future design are the ones coming directly off the trunk sitting on the board. You need the board to be sitting on soil because you want the roots to run and grow. Every re-pot, the mess under the board goes away and you start over again.

Thats what I was thinking when I did it....


So I am not crazy!

 

[Tieball]

That sure is what happens....
But you're cutting all that mess off every year anyhow.

I think the key is to put it on a board that is slightly smaller than the final pot.

Ahhhhhhhh....I get it now. Thanks. I misunderstood what was happening with those roots.

 

[Dav4]

Thats what I was thinking when I did it....


So I am not crazy!

For the record, my response was more toward tieball's comment about planting directly on the bottom of a flat pot. I think yours will work for now, but getting the tree into a wider, shallower pot with a larger board will give better results.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Joe, I think at this early state you're doing okay. I've started this year to grow on boards a lot in the way that Adair showed. I use mostly plastic instead of wood, but I may have to start using wood as the trees progress years later.

I would've planted the maple deeper than how you did it, because my Summer even in the shade would dry out soil near the surface. What else I would do differently is grow the maple on a flat surface with a hole in the middle. Some people use a CD. I've used an old cutting board and drilled a hole into it.

BVF has shown this on his blog:
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2014/04/12/some-root-work-on-tridents-growing-in-the-ground/.

Here's a post at Adam's:
http://adamaskwhy.com/2014/02/18/trident-maple-nebari-improvement-technique/

 

[M. Frary]

planting directly on the bottom of a flat pot

Smoke has a post on his blog where he does this very thing.

 

[JoeR]

Joe, I think at this early state you're doing okay. I've started this year to grow on boards a lot in the way that Adair showed. I use mostly plastic instead of wood, but I may have to start using wood as the trees progress years later.

I would've planted the maple deeper than how you did it, because my Summer even in the shade would dry out soil near the surface. What else I would do differently is grow the maple on a flat surface with a hole in the middle. Some people use a CD. I've used an old cutting board and drilled a hole into it.

BVF has shown this on his blog:
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2014/04/12/some-root-work-on-tridents-growing-in-the-ground/.

Here's a post at Adam's:
http://adamaskwhy.com/2014/02/18/trident-maple-nebari-improvement-technique/

You know, I thought about it drying out too fast in summer too, so I decided I will just have to add sphagnum to the surface.

@M. Frary I thought it was him that did it but I wasnt 100% sure.

 

[JoeR]

You made the pot? That's cool!

Yeah its an ugly one, isnt it?

Lol

The pot is one from my first batch of failed home-made pots that all had terribly ugly glazes! Lol! I have been working on it though.


Heres another... lets just say... "Vibrant" shohin pot from the same batch:



The glaze is called firecracker and it was supposed to have more specks of green and yellow, not sure what happened. Oh and I have to sand the speck of glaze off of the foot.

 

[JoeR]

And @sorce

Here were the pots I was thinking about buying an accent plant for, also from the same first batch of pots as above:



Real small 'natural' pot, I imagine some sort of grass or fern or orchid hanging out of it.


And then heres another accent pot I am actually quite fond of. Its glaze is called pistachio:

 

[sorce]

And then heres another accent pot I am actually quite fond of. Its glaze is called pistachio:

That would look nice with a dried grass in it IMO.
Nice.

The nippleless booby...?

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

That would look nice with a dried grass in it IMO.
Nice.

The nippleless booby...?

Sorce

Sure, if thats what you wanna call it.

... Dried grass?


Anddd the bonsai two step. I have to bring it in every night and put it out every morning- that is if its above freezing, which is not always the case.


I was considering just keeping it in my tropical setup full time, at least until the cold snap passes. That way it isnt so dry from the heater and it gets more light.


Ughhh. I hate the two step. So do the trees.

 

[sorce]

... Dried grass?

Like this here I lifted off some fine blog.
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/3054/


Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Bam! I've just started using this technique, but my thoughts are that the only roots that matter to the future design are the ones coming directly off the trunk sitting on the board. You need the board to be sitting on soil because you want the roots to run and grow. Every re-pot, the mess under the board goes away and you start over again.

Screwing the tree to the board prevents the downward growing roots from pushing the trunk up out of the pot! Circling roots will push the tree up, too. Roots want to grow down. To the point they can push the tree up! Screwing it on the board prevents that. Now, those roots that grow under the board, between the board and the bottom of the roots might be able to lift the board a little, but that doesn't matter. It's the roots up next to the trunk that matters. There's just no way you can secure a trunk to the bottom of a ceramic pot, or to a tile, as firmly. Yes, the board will only last two or three seasons. By then, it needs to be pulled, barerooted, pruned, adjusted, and so on, anyway.

And, be sure to bury the whole mess an inch or so under the soil. Yes, bury the trunk. Roots won't thicken as well if they are exposed to the sun. Instead of thickening and "melting" into each other, they bark up. Keeping them buried keeps the exterior surface of the roots soft so they will fuse and thicken. Yes, we are developing "surface roots", but roots we want to see on the surface 5 years from now!

There is a thread on here devoted to this topic. Search for "Ebihara technique".

Jonas's blog "www.bonsaitonight.com" also has more descriptions and pictures, and pictures of the results! Once you see the results, it all makes sense.