H.D. Material VS established pre-bonsai

[Silentrunning]

One of the Senior members of this site has alluded to the fact that if you want a quality bonsai you have to start with high quality, costly base material. I will respectfully disagree. If I spend 10 or 15 years developing a good base tree I surely would hope a noobie (like myself) wouldn’t get his hands on it. I would hope that someone with vast experience would finish the tree to be a winner. For someone to discourage or insult a person for beginning with a malsai or H.D. Juniper is just not in the best interest of our craft. We all will kill trees in the beginning. Let’s kill basic trees as opposed to quality trees until we have a better understanding of the craft.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

One of the Senior members of this site has alluded to the fact that if you want a quality bonsai you have to start with high quality, costly base material. I will respectfully disagree. If I spend 10 or 15 years developing a good base tree I surely would hope a noobie (like myself) wouldn’t get his hands on it. I would hope that someone with vast experience would finish the tree to be a winner. For someone to discourage or insult a person for beginning with a malsai or H.D. Juniper is just not in the best interest of our craft. We all will kill trees in the beginning. Let’s kill basic trees as opposed to quality trees until we have a better understanding of the craft.

Agreed. It’s better to just ignore him. That thread he posted the other day has skyrocketed to 90 something comments already. I haven’t been following it, probably better for my mental health ?.

 

[Stan Kengai]

I think you missed the point of the other thread you mention. But that aside . . .
There is decent bonsai stock available for $50-100 in most parts of the US. Whether that is too much to spend on bonsai stock depends on you confidence level and your budget. But I've seen noobs spend their money on 20 or thirty nursery plants, when they could have bought 6 or 8 pre-bonsai plants instead. Plants purposely grown for bonsai are going to be better than anything you can get at a nursery 90% of the time.

 

[Silentrunning]

I think you missed the point of the other thread you mention. But that aside . . .
There is decent bonsai stock available for $50-100 in most parts of the US. Whether that is too much to spend on bonsai stock depends on you confidence level and your budget. But I've seen noobs spend their money on 20 or thirty nursery plants, when they could have bought 6 or 8 pre-bonsai plants instead. Plants purposely grown for bonsai are going to be better than anything you can get at a nursery 90% of the time.

Stan, I have no argument with anything you say. But I didn’t miss the point.

 

[Bananaman]

One of the Senior members of this site has alluded to the fact that if you want a quality bonsai you have to start with high quality, costly base material. I will respectfully disagree. If I spend 10 or 15 years developing a good base tree I surely would hope a noobie (like myself) wouldn’t get his hands on it. I would hope that someone with vast experience would finish the tree to be a winner. For someone to discourage or insult a person for beginning with a malsai or H.D. Juniper is just not in the best interest of our craft. We all will kill trees in the beginning. Let’s kill basic trees as opposed to quality trees until we have a better understanding of the craft.

You did miss the point. Price has never been the issue. The plant is the issue. Some will have to pay a fortune to get what I can get for 75.00 bucks. Thats not the issue. I have not discouraged nor insulted anyone. I have retorted to those that have insulted me, like your doing here by saying things I didn't say.

If your going to talk about me then please quote what it is you disagree with and we can discuss it. This is a discussion forum, people seem to forget that. And please keep to the topic and not the typer.

 

[Carol 83]

I think you missed the point of the other thread you mention. But that aside . . .
There is decent bonsai stock available for $50-100 in most parts of the US. Whether that is too much to spend on bonsai stock depends on you confidence level and your budget. But I've seen noobs spend their money on 20 or thirty nursery plants, when they could have bought 6 or 8 pre-bonsai plants instead. Plants purposely grown for bonsai are going to be better than anything you can get at a nursery 90% of the time.

So true, and I am certainly guilty of buying a bunch of cheap little stuff. But then I bought a few nicer, more developed trees, just fewer of them. It depends on what you want, I guess. But I am happier with a bit more quality over quantity.

 

[Johnathan]

Nothing wrong with learning how to water and care and winterize on HD trees. Getting a fundamental routine and understanding. Ultimately I think the best available stock cost time and energy. Some people don't have time and energy, but they have money and can buy someone else's time and energy. Go collecting.

 

[Silentrunning]

You did miss the point. Price has never been the issue. The plant is the issue. Some will have to pay a fortune to get what I can get for 75.00 bucks. Thats not the issue. I have not discouraged nor insulted anyone. I have retorted to those that have insulted me, like your doing here by saying things I didn't say.

If your going to talk about me then please quote what it is you disagree with and we can discuss it. This is a discussion forum, people seem to forget that. And please keep to the topic and not the typer.

“Price has never been the issue” Not exactly what you have been implying in past posts.

“The plant is the issue” A plant that is well on its way to being bonsai ain’t going to be cheap.

Al, you remind me of the people in my Hot Rod group that would buy cars that were 90% finished and throw a coat of paint on it and say they built the car. Then they would laugh at us that spent nights building our cars from the ground up and have cars that were less than perfect. I will admit that you are heads and shoulders above anything I will ever be in bonsai, I just wish you were someone approachable, but since you “have earned the right to be an asshole”, I will just glean what I can from your posts but I will never respect you.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

I'm new to the hobby, about 1.5 yr, my friend who is close to the same time suggested we increase our budget on new material based on our years of experience. I thought this was a great idea. Our budget for example was to maybe add $50 x years experience initially ( adjust based on your income/enthusiasm).

 

[AZbonsai]

You are basically buying time when you purchase prebonsai material is how I look at it. With plants from an actual bonsai nursery you are buying time and a bit of talent if the plants have been modified for bonsai. You pay a premium price for time.

 

[AZbonsai]

@Johnathan sorry I see you posted the same thing. Great minds think alike!

 

[Bananaman]

“Price has never been the issue” Not exactly what you have been implying in past posts.

“The plant is the issue” A plant that is well on its way to being bonsai ain’t going to be cheap.

Al, you remind me of the people in my Hot Rod group that would buy cars that were 90% finished and throw a coat of paint on it and say they built the car. Then they would laugh at us that spent nights building our cars from the ground up and have cars that were less than perfect. I will admit that you are heads and shoulders above anything I will ever be in bonsai, I just wish you were someone approachable, but since you “have earned the right to be an asshole”, I will just glean what I can from your posts but I will never respect you.

You know there is way to much emphasis on price as in dollars and cents and no time is being spent on the premise.

here is the premise for those that don't do comprension bery well...

If someone is willing to spend 300.00 dollars on Ryan Neil to learn about bonsai, why would they not spend 300.00 to buy a nice piece of material to apply it to.

Come on if you just want to work on 30.00 material from walmart, and many of you out there seem to think 30.00 for a piece of material is A LOT OF MONEY, then you could learn all you need to know from the likes of Graham Potter. Either one of these guys can tell you all you need to know and one is 300.00 a year and one is free. Feel free to spend your money, I have no beef with anyone buying the service. If it makes you feel good do it. I just don't see the return around here, that is all. I have nothing to gauge it to except this small forum world and many here seem to be partaking of the service but I havn't seen the threads here reflecting all this new found knowledge. I don't expect you to share it, you paid for it and I respect that, but how are you applying it to your trees, and is it working and how do you know, like before and after.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

With whatever material you get, you ought to have a plan and vision to elevate that material. I have not owned any material at selling value more than $45 with exception of maybe one large tree. I've been killing trees and still losing some to the war with the Summer heat. I think I'm doing pretty decent as a hobbyist moving my trees forward.

Update: There ya have it. The premise above. I personally don't know who's spending that money on videos, but if you are you should definitely buy or collect very good material.

 

[Bananaman]

I just wish you were someone approachable, but since you “have earned the right to be an asshole”, I will just glean what I can from your posts but I will never respect you.

That one really hurt me...as I sit here in my office I can see a tear in the finger depression of the "H" key and the "K" key. You don't even know me. I would say there are about fifty on this forum that I know personally, they know who I am and how I conduct my life and how I do bonsai. Its not anything like I see here......

 

[Saddler]

“Price has never been the issue” Not exactly what you have been implying in past posts.

“The plant is the issue” A plant that is well on its way to being bonsai ain’t going to be cheap.

Al, you remind me of the people in my Hot Rod group that would buy cars that were 90% finished and throw a coat of paint on it and say they built the car. Then they would laugh at us that spent nights building our cars from the ground up and have cars that were less than perfect. I will admit that you are heads and shoulders above anything I will ever be in bonsai, I just wish you were someone approachable, but since you “have earned the right to be an asshole”, I will just glean what I can from your posts but I will never respect you.

What I got out of that thread was don’t kid yourself about what can be done with the material you have.

Going with your car analogy using Home Depot trees is like buying a very rusted out chassis, you know the one, the floor boards are gone and the roof is more missing then there, the fenders are being held in place by the ground. Yes someone with excellent skills in welding, body work, mechanics and everything else that goes along could bring it back to its former glory. The average man will probably never get the roof to look just right and maybe one fender will be bigger then the other and so on and so forth. Spend a tiny bit more and you can get something with less rust, but how good will the paint look next to someone’s ride that does it professionally? This is the one in a thousand HD find. Spend a little more and you can get a rust free chassis with ten boxes of parts, this more comparable to buying a trunk grown for bonsai with little else. Spending just a little more and you are into a solid, if far from perfect car that runs with lots of work to make it your own. A trunk with branch structure with lots of work to make it your own. This goes all the way up to a finished car/bonsai. It sound like you are saying that I can’t say I built any tree or car of my own that I didn’t find in a junk yard or HD. Maybe I should just sell my 280Z because I have been saying I am restoring it with my own two hands on a budget, but really I just bought a running car that someone else did 90% of the work to it (which was Nissan 40 years ago) and I have no claim in all that engine work I did or all that rust I fixed and painted because I didn’t build it from the ground up. I guess the same goes my trees.

 

[clem]

We all will kill trees in the beginning.

I 'm not sure all bonsai experts keep alive 100% of their collection years after years décades after décades. In Japan, there is a good transmission of knowledge so a Young "bonsai student" can become very skilled professional after years of apprenticeship and can manage to buy and keep healthy very good trees.
I found that the good material in "bonsai nursery" are far more expensive than in trees nurseries. If you can find tree nurseries which are specialised in palmatum or others rare trees/shrubs (for example who multiply trees by cuttings) you can find very good material (10 Y. O or more) at very good price (30 € - 60 € for my nursery)

 

[jeanluc83]

I just don't see the return around here, that is all.

I think you have been watching too many late night infomercials where you buy X product and it magically transforms your life.

I'm sorry bonsai doesn't work that way. Only bad things happen fast.

Ryan's video subscription has been around for what a year and a half or so. Assuming you started in the beginning that gives you about a year of development and that is assuming the timing was appropriate to apply a given technique. The development in a year can be very subtle. In fact most of the improvements will not be fully realized for several years.

I'll also contend that much of the improvement may be on a smaller scale. It might be a better technique for anchoring guy wires that you hadn't thought of or a better way to apply raffia. It is hardly the earth shattering transformation that you seam to want.

 

[Anthony]

It's a -HOBBY - please just enjoy yourself.

Remember the Design is what makes the difference.

When you can understand design, take a second look at
some of those - popular and well published trees - see
what you see,

Try not to get caught up in this $$$ bestest tree nonsense.

If it were a Profession ------ then you have to think about Income
and Sales -------- so you would either have to Hype or
really be good at Designs.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cadillactaste]

“Price has never been the issue” Not exactly what you have been implying in past posts.

“The plant is the issue” A plant that is well on its way to being bonsai ain’t going to be cheap.

Al, you remind me of the people in my Hot Rod group that would buy cars that were 90% finished and throw a coat of paint on it and say they built the car. Then they would laugh at us that spent nights building our cars from the ground up and have cars that were less than perfect. I will admit that you are heads and shoulders above anything I will ever be in bonsai, I just wish you were someone approachable, but since you “have earned the right to be an asshole”, I will just glean what I can from your posts but I will never respect you.

This is false if I ever heard it...Al has taken good bones...and developed it into a decent tree. To say he buys trees 90% done and finishes them is hog patootie! Good bones sometimes cost $$$. But it's the bones that adds character to ones bench. (By good bones,I mean a decent trunk line that stands out from a plain Jane.) Even Walter Pall has stated in the past here...that it's the bones of a tree that are important. The rest you can build around.

 

[Anthony]

I believe the idea expressed is that some folk like to do
for themselves, and don't find working on almost finished
things, very satisfying.

So if the - BONES - are the most important part, and you
purchase a tree with all the bones in place, next is a
Green Hat.

It is called BUYBONSAI.

Personally, not very satisfying.

If I had a dollar for every person who hired an architect, a
construction crew, landscaper and interior designer, and
then boasts I built a house .................................................
Good Day
Anthony