***Harunobu's Satsuki Seeds***

[Pitoon]

I had asked @Harunobu for what ever left over satsuki seeds he had left, and he sent me 5 packets of seeds..........Thank you! So I think it's right to dedicate a thread for growing out his seeds. Whomever else received seeds feel free to document your journey to producing flowers, possibly even new cultivars.

DAY 1

SEEDS!


Trays are filled with my potting mixture (peat, vermiculite, sand)


Trays are topped with sphagnum moss


Close up of the seeds


Seeds in the growing station under LED lights (20,000 lumens) about 18in below the lights

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
I have had mine in trays for 12 days now, and getting good germination. Roots are underway. I am trying not to think about the pricking out of these as it might take a while.

Didn’t have Spagnum on hand (little ironic) and went with peat or vermiculite.
Charles

 

[Harunobu]

Looks very good @Pitoon. However, you have sown very densely. That will work great for germination. But if you keep them all in there, your trays will start to look like this in two months:


No idea how these will look in April. Near that time, some may have 0.5cm-1cm sized leaves. And it will be very difficult to get the roots untangled when transplanting, Not sure if some will take off and outshade the rest. Or if they will all grow equally and all slow each other down.

So 12 to 18 days in is the best time to transplant out seeds that are germinating, before their root digs down. Then you can create some quality trays like this one:


It is some finicky labour, but having a tray with seedlings that are spacious and having made a selection for germination strength will give you quality seedlings.
Both of these are As04 x unknown, sowed 7 weeks ago.

If you sowed less dense, you can wait with transplanting and make a selection for those that already have their first true leaf (about 5 weeks in). But then you really have to dig for their roots and make sure these sometimes 3cm roots don't snap. So that is more labour intensive.
BTW, that is something I learned this year, by trying to dig these up. I thought they did not grow a long taproot straight down. But some do. Uusally the stronger seedlings. So that means having 3cm or more of soil beneath the sphagnum is actually a good idea, if you intend to keep them in that tray for longer. That gives more space for the roots and probably makes the tangled roots issue in early spring less severe.

I think you can already see that the transplanted seedlings look a bit better than the best seedlings in the huge seedling jungle. (Despite pictures against the black peat background being way worse than the green on brown of the sphagnum seedlings. Seems both a focus issue and a lightning/shiny leaves issue.)


Oh, and concerning your labeling, make sure you never take all the lids off at the same time. Labeling lids rather than containers is risky. And they don't need light right now. I don't know about lumen. That is about how humans perceive light. Probably a PPFD of 400 μmol/m2/s is more than enough. They can probably take more. They may try to grow out from the shade and bend towards the light at 200 μmol/m2/s. Didn't do a hard measurement on this, though. Just guesstimating how much I am giving them vs the specs of the light I use. Those in the edge of my lighted area do bend towards the light. But they grow fine otherwise.

 

[Pitoon]

@Harunobu the trays are always labeled first. I also labeled the lids so I won't have to keep picking up the trays every time I want to see what seed cross they are. But yes, I only pick up one lid at a time, and return it before opening another.


For the transplanting, that is the chore I dread the most. Sometimes it's takes hours to replant seedlings that I grow. So when it's time to transplant I am planning to plant directly into cell trays verse planting into another flat to just transplant them again later down the road (to much root disturbance) In the pic the cell tray on the left is a 200cell tray. This tray will be the first transplanting. When they fill those cells with roots I will then transplant them to the cell tray to the right which is a 50 cell tray. I think by the time it takes to move to the 50 cell tray I should be able to see the strong growers verse the weak ones and can then select transplant. Your thoughts?

 

[Harunobu]

Well, if you labeled the bottom. So no worries opening up all the lids. Also, I wrote the 'u x ko' a bit like a μ. Those are the Suisen seeds, and I am using the lower case 'u' because the 'S' was taken. If I read your writing, I would say it is an 'M'. Just so you know those are the Suisen x Kobai seeds.

Moving them from your current tray to the 200 cell plug tray will work. But it is probably not optimal. The most painless way to transplant is very early, before the roots dig down. And by that time, they are quite small for the plug tray. I did move some of my seeds to a plug tray with small cells. And they are growing. But you have a tiny seedling in a huge plug tray. You are wasting photons under your grow light. Also, the cells all dry up at different rates, but that is manageable.

If you wait until they grow more, then the stronger growers start to stand out more. It will be near impossible to cleanly remove the strong growers and leave the others undisturbed. At that point, you probably need to take out the entire layer of sphagnum. And it is probably matted because of the roots. And then try to pull it apart in a way where your favoured seedlings are not damaged.
I haven't tried this this year yet. I have plug trays ready, but I am not sure myself if I want to move them to those. Or do another tray in between.

Through early transplanting, I created some trays like these:

I think this density is pretty ideal going towards late winter.

I think if you have that, it will be relatively painless to move them to a plug tray somewhere in February or March, when they are 2 to 4cm tall. Having 50 of each in that large plug tray, they have enough space to flower in 3-4 years or so. You might even do another transplant. And 50 is quite enough to see some diversity and get something nice. Then, the mundane looking flowers you could use to practice some bonsai techniques on.

 

[Pitoon]

That flat you just posted looks very clean and neat. How many weeks are the azaleas in this flat? Now I just have to play the waiting game to see how many germinate.

 

[Pitoon]

@Deep Sea Diver you welcome to join the thread with your seeds

 

[hinmo24t]

cool project. whats the link in your sig, @Pitoon?

 

[Harunobu]

That flat you just posted looks very clean and neat. How many weeks are the azaleas in this flat? Now I just have to play the waiting game to see how many germinate.

That tray is 5 weeks after sowing, Suisen x Hekisui. Yes, it is one of my cleanest. I have plenty of messy trays as well. But nice to have some clean ones for my most promising crosses. But a messy tray, or one that has been ploughed upside down a little to get the better seedlings. Or seedlings that were uprooted or had their roots snapped, they still keep going. They are near 100% humidity with the lid on. So they just get slowed down.

Same with a transplant say in April if you keep it the way you have it now. It will be a mess to get the nice seedlings out there and to get them in that 200 cell plug. And they will have been slowed down. And they will get their roots pruned by the transplant. But that will slow them down, not kill them.
If you want a clean tray like mine, use a toothpick 12 to 18 days from now, and move them over to a new tray. You can just rest them down on the peat. Put the lid on, and a few days later they will be digging down and opening their seed leaves. And when doing the boring work of moving seedling by seedling; just try to imagine what the flowers of each might look like. That works for me.

I understand you though. You are in the 'let's first see if they germinate' mode of thinking. But you should expect 80% of the seeds to germinate, with about half starting 10 to 14 days from now.

 

[hinmo24t]

That tray is 5 weeks after sowing, Suisen x Hekisui. Yes, it is one of my cleanest. I have plenty of messy trays as well. But nice to have some clean ones for my most promising crosses. But a messy tray, or one that has been ploughed upside down a little to get the better seedlings. Or seedlings that were uprooted or had their roots snapped, they still keep going. They are near 100% humidity with the lid on. So they just get slowed down.

Same with a transplant say in April if you keep it the way you have it now. It will be a mess to get the nice seedlings out there and to get them in that 200 cell plug. And they will have been slowed down. And they will get their roots pruned by the transplant. But that will slow them down, not kill them.
If you want a clean tray like mine, use a toothpick 12 to 18 days from now, and move them over to a new tray. You can just rest them down on the peat. Put the lid on, and a few days later they will be digging down and opening their seed leaves. And when doing the boring work of moving seedling by seedling; just try to imagine what the flowers of each might look like. That works for me.

I understand you though. You are in the 'let's first see if they germinate' mode of thinking. But you should expect 80% of the seeds to germinate, with about half starting 10 to 14 days from now.

solid claim with the 4/5, and cool perspective on positive mindset during the boring part

 

[Pitoon]

cool project. whats the link in your sig, @Pitoon?

The link is to my future website. I wanted to lock my domain.......just taking baby steps to the finish line.

 

[Pitoon]

That tray is 5 weeks after sowing, Suisen x Hekisui. Yes, it is one of my cleanest. I have plenty of messy trays as well. But nice to have some clean ones for my most promising crosses. But a messy tray, or one that has been ploughed upside down a little to get the better seedlings. Or seedlings that were uprooted or had their roots snapped, they still keep going. They are near 100% humidity with the lid on. So they just get slowed down.

Same with a transplant say in April if you keep it the way you have it now. It will be a mess to get the nice seedlings out there and to get them in that 200 cell plug. And they will have been slowed down. And they will get their roots pruned by the transplant. But that will slow them down, not kill them.
If you want a clean tray like mine, use a toothpick 12 to 18 days from now, and move them over to a new tray. You can just rest them down on the peat. Put the lid on, and a few days later they will be digging down and opening their seed leaves. And when doing the boring work of moving seedling by seedling; just try to imagine what the flowers of each might look like. That works for me.

I understand you though. You are in the 'let's first see if they germinate' mode of thinking. But you should expect 80% of the seeds to germinate, with about half starting 10 to 14 days from now.

If I can find a lid that would cover that 200 cell tray that would be sweet. I wouldn't mind doing the toothpick method slowly filling say 20-25 cells a day to fill the 200 cell tray. It would take about a week to fill it.

And when doing the boring work of moving seedling by seedling; just try to imagine what the flowers of each might look like. That works for me.

This really made me laugh. Now my search to find a lid that will fit. Five 200 cell trays is 1000 seedlings......I think that's enough seedlings to manage, lol.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hi All,
Looks like you are all a good bit ahead of where the seeds I have are. They are at Day 1!


Eventually with good germination, in 21ish days I intend to transfer maybe 2-4 seedlings to each cell in this 72 cell container and selectively hard prune the germination tray to get good spacing.


Then I’ll see what grows best and likely prune back to 2 seedlings. If that works ok, I might split the plugs and put 1/2 into another tray. (I do this with cuttings already) 3 trays will be way enough for this years experiment as I’mtrying to grow out whips in 3 other trays.

Cheers
DSD sends
OS: Thanks for the invite @Pitoon

 

[Pitoon]

@Deep Sea Diver I'm at day 2 right now, so we're pretty much the same. I'm curious to see when yours germinates compared to mine with you being on the west coast and I'm on the east coast.

That 2 cell tray looks bullet proof, where did you pick that one up at?

 

[stu929]

I'm really sad I missed out on this. I'm newer but have always loved azealas have have already picked up a few to pot next year.

Will be following this post closely! Best of luck.

 

[Harunobu]

If I can find a lid that would cover that 200 cell tray that would be sweet. I wouldn't mind doing the toothpick method slowly filling say 20-25 cells a day to fill the 200 cell tray. It would take about a week to fill it.


This really made me laugh. Now my search to find a lid that will fit. Five 200 cell trays is 1000 seedlings......I think that's enough seedlings to manage, lol.

Just build a tent using plastic. Fold it around and come up with something to support the plastic on top. Like this:


Or use wire and make arches.

I did plant Suisen x Hekisui seedlings into this one plug tray. I just took pictures of every single seedling. This is an experiment to keep track of how a seedling looks from the earliest true leaf. Taking pictures of individual seedlings every few months, maybe that will give insights into how to select seedlings early.


I got 10 trays worth 144 plugs each. But I think I will be using the other 9 when moving stuff outside. One reason is that the plug trays fit poorly in my bins.
This tray inside with a plastic tent definitely works. But it is not space-efficient.

If you want to remove a seedling when it already grew its root into the sphagnum, use a toothpick to push the entire seedling sideways. So use the stem as a lever, then you can push it gently away from where it was, and that can pull the bottom of the root free from the sphagnum fibers it grew into, without the root snapping off. I hear they mightg also be pulled out using a set of pincers by pulling at the leaves. But the pincers I have would cut sharply into the leaf. You if you have or can find a set of pinchers with a very flat surface that distrubute the pressure over a larger area, that may work better. Apparently, using the pincers on the stem is more damaging than using the leaves. I guess crushing a part of the seed leaf is not an issue. But crushing the middle section of the stem is potentially very damaging.

I'm really sad I missed out on this. I'm newer but have always loved azealas have have already picked up a few to pot next year.

Will be following this post closely! Best of luck.

I still have seeds.

Crosses2020.xlsx

drive.google.com

That said, you need some luck and volume of seedlings to get a really nice one. If you just want really nice azaleas, it is better to get asexually propagated ones that are definitely really nice. If you want to join the quest in trying to find something new, send me a PM.

 

[Pitoon]

Just build a tent using plastic. Fold it around and come up with something to support the plastic on top. Like this:
View attachment 342812

Or use wire and make arches.

I did plant Suisen x Hekisui seedlings into this one plug tray. I just took pictures of every single seedling. This is an experiment to keep track of how a seedling looks from the earliest true leaf. Taking pictures of individual seedlings every few months, maybe that will give insights into how to select seedlings early.
View attachment 342821

I got 10 trays worth 144 plugs each. But I think I will be using the other 9 when moving stuff outside. One reason is that the plug trays fit poorly in my bins.
This tray inside with a plastic tent definitely works. But it is not space-efficient.

If you want to remove a seedling when it already grew its root into the sphagnum, use a toothpick to push the entire seedling sideways. So use the stem as a lever, then you can push it gently away from where it was, and that can pull the bottom of the root free from the sphagnum fibers it grew into, without the root snapping off. I hear they mightg also be pulled out using a set of pincers by pulling at the leaves. But the pincers I have would cut sharply into the leaf. You if you have or can find a set of pinchers with a very flat surface that distrubute the pressure over a larger area, that may work better. Apparently, using the pincers on the stem is more damaging than using the leaves. I guess crushing a part of the seed leaf is not an issue. But crushing the middle section of the stem is potentially very damaging.




I still have seeds.

Crosses2020.xlsx

drive.google.com

That said, you need some luck and volume of seedlings to get a really nice one. If you just want really nice azaleas, it is better to get asexually propagated ones that are definitely really nice. If you want to join the quest in trying to find something new, send me a PM.

I found these lids that should fit. That plastic sheet is a good idea. At what timeframe do you bring them outside, unprotected?

2" plastic lids

 

[just.wing.it]

Azaleas from SEED!
You guys are crazy!
Keep up the good work!

 

[Harunobu]

I found these lids that should fit. That plastic sheet is a good idea. At what timeframe do you bring them outside, unprotected?

2" plastic lids

After there is no more risk of frost/night temperatures dropping below 0C. It may be that if you do transition them to the outside, and they have 5C nights for several weeks, and they are quite sizable, that they could take a -1C frost. But I once killed all my seedlings in mid April when suddenly night frost did hit. So better to keep them sheltered until for sure it won't freeze at all. That usually is late April here, though there can be frost in early May. The type that kills fruit tree blossoms. Then, you have to move them back indoors for the night for sure.

As for lids/plastic, probably my older seedlings will be fine without any right now. But I have a problem with fungus gnats. So I try to keep everything covered so I can capture and kill them. And my unaffected trays don't get infested.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yep, I have some issues with little bugs and larva on my whip experiment too, but not the same ones as @Harunobu Been hitting them with safer soap, also using Serenade and/or a dilute copper fungicide on the whips infrequently to keep the fungus down. So be ready. I may go for a dilute nuclear option if I get ticked off enough. They are just a nuisance right now

Flats - I recently gave up on the cheap but garden nursery trays and plug flats. Most any cover will work although even doubled up high domes are too small for 8-10” whips. So I’m getting all the trays in the mega heavy duty mode and the plug flats from a place called Greenhouse Megastore (Illinois?). The trays are thicker than at least 4 standard nursery trays the plug flats are at least 2-3x thicker,
Cheers
DSD sends