Have some q's about Ruby Loropetalum (collected/trunk-chopped, *not* root-chopped and don't know what to do!)

SU2

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I was very happy a couple weeks ago when, after some time in dormancy, a collected ruby loropetalum began showing buds swelling on its branches - it began budding so quickly & profusely that I cut it back hard since spring growth is starting quickly here (it's been hitting 80deg and real sunny), anyways my problem is that, when I collected it a couple months ago while it was dormant, I found that not only was the top half 'bad stock' but the roots were just a mess, a spiraling mess of lignified thick roots before many of the feeders :/ I've tried collecting loropetalum before, did my best and spent a while watching it slowly die, I didn't dare root-prune too much on this, I just used a regular 6" black plastic 'nursery container' to contain its massive root system (wish I'd taken pictures after cutting the roots, I probably removed a third at most from how I'd collected it / how it's pictured)

I know that now, while it's budding (actually now it's got several shoots with 2-3 leaves, the attached jpg is ~1wk old), wouldn't be a smart time to root-prune it - but I've got no clue when the right time would be and am 1 for 2 with this species so far and really don't want to lose this one, no idea when I'd find another w/ any decent trunk-girth! Any guidance on when (and why), and/or how (1 heavy root-pruning, 2 or 3 over time, etc?), to do this would be real appreciated!! And any info, however general, in regards to this specie as a bonsai would be helpful of course ;D


19700421_201347.jpg

19700521_160515.jpg


Thanks for anything on this neat species! Too bad it's such poor stock, but it's the only spot I've ever found to collect it so it was more for the sake of having one (like the ~5" wide Laurel Oak I finally got to take, thankfully its roots aren't monstrous!) Figure that, over time, I'll be able to make something out of it :D

(also, I can't help but think that, with it growing so vigorous, it may be smarter to cut-back harder right now early in the season, instead of letting it put a lot of energy to redundant branches...that picture ^ was actually several days after its first/main hard-prune, the thing had budded / they were swelling so fast that I figured it made sense to cut back to 'sets', but left all the buds along the bottom - can't help but think I should prune-off a majority of those, I mean leave some for a place for it to pump energy/grow/photosynthesize, but that can be done w/ a smaller mass down below (which'd eventually be removed anyways) so more resources go to the higher buds...keep thinking this but it's growing so well that I don't want to be too risky!)
 

M. Frary

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I collected it a couple months ago
And you're already cutting it back hard? It just had a real bad insult at collection time just a couple months ago.
And now you want to cut more roots and think it could be cut back hard again if I read that right.
You have to let it grow. For a good long while. Like a year. Let the poor thing recover from what you've done to it so far this year.
In other words,quit fiddling with it,let it sit there,water and fertilize it and let it do it's thing.
A little neglect goes a long ways for collected trees.
I collect elms. Strong,fast growing beasts. They probably blow most other trees if not every tree out of the water for recovery after collection. The only thing I do to those the first year after collection is a little branch selection in the middle of summer.
That's it.
 

choppychoppy

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I was very happy a couple weeks ago when, after some time in dormancy, a collected ruby loropetalum began showing buds swelling on its branches - it began budding so quickly & profusely that I cut it back hard since spring growth is starting quickly here (it's been hitting 80deg and real sunny), anyways my problem is that, when I collected it a couple months ago while it was dormant, I found that not only was the top half 'bad stock' but the roots were just a mess, a spiraling mess of lignified thick roots before many of the feeders :/ I've tried collecting loropetalum before, did my best and spent a while watching it slowly die, I didn't dare root-prune too much on this, I just used a regular 6" black plastic 'nursery container' to contain its massive root system (wish I'd taken pictures after cutting the roots, I probably removed a third at most from how I'd collected it / how it's pictured)

I know that now, while it's budding (actually now it's got several shoots with 2-3 leaves, the attached jpg is ~1wk old), wouldn't be a smart time to root-prune it - but I've got no clue when the right time would be and am 1 for 2 with this species so far and really don't want to lose this one, no idea when I'd find another w/ any decent trunk-girth! Any guidance on when (and why), and/or how (1 heavy root-pruning, 2 or 3 over time, etc?), to do this would be real appreciated!! And any info, however general, in regards to this specie as a bonsai would be helpful of course ;D


View attachment 178548

View attachment 178549


Thanks for anything on this neat species! Too bad it's such poor stock, but it's the only spot I've ever found to collect it so it was more for the sake of having one (like the ~5" wide Laurel Oak I finally got to take, thankfully its roots aren't monstrous!) Figure that, over time, I'll be able to make something out of it :D

(also, I can't help but think that, with it growing so vigorous, it may be smarter to cut-back harder right now early in the season, instead of letting it put a lot of energy to redundant branches...that picture ^ was actually several days after its first/main hard-prune, the thing had budded / they were swelling so fast that I figured it made sense to cut back to 'sets', but left all the buds along the bottom - can't help but think I should prune-off a majority of those, I mean leave some for a place for it to pump energy/grow/photosynthesize, but that can be done w/ a smaller mass down below (which'd eventually be removed anyways) so more resources go to the higher buds...keep thinking this but it's growing so well that I don't want to be too risky!)



If you actually want this tree to have a chance do not cut one single leaf off of this tree for two years. I MEAN it - don't try to 'select' branches or remove what you think are unnecessary etc. These do not grow a fast root system and do not respond well to top pruning. I have several of these and you must let the tree get very very healthy and let the root system fill the pot. Now from what I have seen from you I don't really think you will follow this advice but I also am in florida and understand the temps and growing seasons well and am very familiar with this tree. I've also harvested a hedgerow of them. The tree would prefer to give up the entire top of itself under heavy stress and just start over from root shoots, so if you continue to cut it at all it will quit. Leave it alone.
 

SU2

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Now from what I have seen from you I don't really think you will follow this advice

What makes you say this? If I wasn't interested in advice I wouldn't have wasted my time posting... :/ And you, in particular, are precisely the type I was hoping to find for guidance here (ie ruby specific knowledge and my environment), I collected this crappy stock because I want to have a ruby not because I think it'll make an awesome bonsai that I want to rush towards (it won't it's terrible stock, I'll just be happy to have successfully collected / maintained one...

If you actually want this tree to have a chance do not cut one single leaf off of this tree for two years. I MEAN it - don't try to 'select' branches or remove what you think are unnecessary etc
This is because it needs to grow-out as much foliage as possible, so that it can restore its energy reserves, correct? (hoping to understand as well as knowing just what to do!)


I've also harvested a hedgerow of them.
Schweeet!! How large were they? What % survived? Was it done during winter dormancy? I'm imagining these were trunk-chopped (having trouble picturing any foliage on the lowest/inside parts of a hedge, have the impression ruby won't backbud w/o foliage but just a feeling am not sure- am sure you'd know though and am curious! There's always a chance I'll find more I can get, this is the 2nd time in a year I've found one I could take!!) If you had any pics or anything to say about that harvesting I'd really appreciate hearing it!!!


The tree would prefer to give up the entire top of itself under heavy stress and just start over from root shoots, so if you continue to cut it at all it will quit. Leave it alone.
See I'd think that that ^ would be all the more reason to hobble the lower budding, right now the top-most growth is the strongest (didn't expect such apical behavior from a bush/shrub..) so I guess my thinking was that removing lower buds would just let those resources travel up to the top shoots - am curious why that's not the case with this, if I did the same thing on a bougie it'd certainly redirect that growth to the branches above but bougies are odd plants (I want to stress I'm not going to go and cut/rub those bottom shoots off, I just want to understand this species better and am eager to hear what a FL bonsai'ist w/ ruby-experience can tell me about them because I'm finding good/in-depth info lacking)


Most of all though, the root problem- Does that thing get cut at 12mo? Would it be better to do it in multiple steps like half next jan, the other half in jan '20? Torniquettes/other tricks? (fwiw I only trimmed-back because of how vigorous it was, am happy to know better now I'd just like to understand it more, I'm not asking just so I can go and do something different my goal with this specimen is just keep it alive if I could go back and un-do those cuts I would but at the time I was doing a spring-pruning and it was budding so strong that it was my instinct that it was the right thing to do, I've only been in this for ~1yr so my instinct was wrong, thanks for chiming-in especially considering your doubts that I cared what you had to say!)
 

SU2

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And you're already cutting it back hard? It just had a real bad insult at collection time just a couple months ago.
I thought its vigor meant it'd be just fine w/ that, in fact I'd thought it wise to remove like 75% of the tips at the base before reading replies in this thread - lesson learned!

And now you want to cut more roots and think it could be cut back hard again if I read that right.
Not exactly, I'm most concerned with just how & when I should handle that massive twisted root system because I don't want to risk it dying, I know it's poor-quality stock I just want a loropetalum, am far more interested in keeping it healthy & vigorous than I am w/ shaping it, if I was trying 'instant bonsai' (like I think everyone's presuming) then I'd have taken the sawzall to the bottom 3/4 of that root-mass before potting-up..

I don't want to do anything specific, I want to do what's best for the tree (which is apparently to just leave it to its own devices for a year0

You have to let it grow. For a good long while. Like a year. Let the poor thing recover from what you've done to it so far this year.
In other words,quit fiddling with it,let it sit there,water and fertilize it and let it do it's thing.
You wouldn't happen to know if it has specific/unique fertilizer requirements? I put Epsoma's 'GardenTone' in the substrate upon potting (at a light rate, maybe 1.5-2.0-2.0), and right now am just giving it liquid fert at ~1/4 the rate I'm feeding my established plants (like literally just taking some of their fertilized water and adding 3 parts clean water to it, I use that on all my recently-collected stuff if it's in a fully inorganic mix, for instance I don't do that on my BC's because they've got some organics and am just relying on the GardenTone I added to their substrate at boxing-time...GardenTone is all organic, fortified w/ microbials, along w/ 'Jobe's' stuff it's some of my favorite fertilizer!)

A little neglect goes a long ways for collected trees.
And here I was under the impression that "after-care is everything" (am being tongue-in-cheek there if it didn't come across through text ;p ) Like I said I just want it to survive, it's the 2nd time I was able to get my hands on a ruby w/ a decently-thick trunk and I don't want it to die like the first, it's survival/health is worlds more important than anything related to style (as I have serious reservations it can be styled into anything decent ever anyways!)

I collect elms. Strong,fast growing beasts. They probably blow most other trees if not every tree out of the water for recovery after collection. The only thing I do to those the first year after collection is a little branch selection in the middle of summer.
That's it.
What % branches do you remove, or maybe a better Q is 'how many branches do you keep?'? It sounds like their post-collection behavior is similar to bougainvilleas, where you can absolutely choose branches to remove at most times w/o causing problems, unfortunately I haven't learned to ID them yet (are they a dormant-only collection-time material? I spent the rest of our dormancy period chasing BC's and am starting to think that, at this point in Feb., that crapes & bougies are all I can collect w/ any confidence..
 

JoeH

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I've collected a few lately and they have been potted up for a couple months and now budding out, I plan to let them be in the training pots for a year or so. I cleaned up the roots at collection time so I wouldn't have to screw with them for a while.
 

choppychoppy

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What makes you say this? If I wasn't interested in advice I wouldn't have wasted my time posting... :/ And you, in particular, are precisely the type I was hoping to find for guidance here (ie ruby specific knowledge and my environment), I collected this crappy stock because I want to have a ruby not because I think it'll make an awesome bonsai that I want to rush towards (it won't it's terrible stock, I'll just be happy to have successfully collected / maintained one...


This is because it needs to grow-out as much foliage as possible, so that it can restore its energy reserves, correct? (hoping to understand as well as knowing just what to do!)



Schweeet!! How large were they? What % survived? Was it done during winter dormancy? I'm imagining these were trunk-chopped (having trouble picturing any foliage on the lowest/inside parts of a hedge, have the impression ruby won't backbud w/o foliage but just a feeling am not sure- am sure you'd know though and am curious! There's always a chance I'll find more I can get, this is the 2nd time in a year I've found one I could take!!) If you had any pics or anything to say about that harvesting I'd really appreciate hearing it!!!



See I'd think that that ^ would be all the more reason to hobble the lower budding, right now the top-most growth is the strongest (didn't expect such apical behavior from a bush/shrub..) so I guess my thinking was that removing lower buds would just let those resources travel up to the top shoots - am curious why that's not the case with this, if I did the same thing on a bougie it'd certainly redirect that growth to the branches above but bougies are odd plants (I want to stress I'm not going to go and cut/rub those bottom shoots off, I just want to understand this species better and am eager to hear what a FL bonsai'ist w/ ruby-experience can tell me about them because I'm finding good/in-depth info lacking)


Most of all though, the root problem- Does that thing get cut at 12mo? Would it be better to do it in multiple steps like half next jan, the other half in jan '20? Torniquettes/other tricks? (fwiw I only trimmed-back because of how vigorous it was, am happy to know better now I'd just like to understand it more, I'm not asking just so I can go and do something different my goal with this specimen is just keep it alive if I could go back and un-do those cuts I would but at the time I was doing a spring-pruning and it was budding so strong that it was my instinct that it was the right thing to do, I've only been in this for ~1yr so my instinct was wrong, thanks for chiming-in especially considering your doubts that I cared what you had to say!)


It just seems like you have a problem leaving stuff alone :). Just let it grow. It needs every leaf and shoot to help push a new root system. When the tree has a full roots system it will back bud all over. The ones I dug and left alone survived the ones that were repotted after the first year all died. The largest one doing the best hasnt had the roots/pot touched in three years. The tree you pictured needs to fill the pot with roots before you start removing any more.
 

SU2

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I've collected a few lately and they have been potted up for a couple months and now budding out, I plan to let them be in the training pots for a year or so. I cleaned up the roots at collection time so I wouldn't have to screw with them for a while.

I wish I was aggressive w/ the roots at collection but, having just 1 prior attempt that failed, I didn't dare! Will be letting this one go for a while as-is, am unsure *when* the right time to cut those roots is (I know it's not now!) but first & foremost I just want it to live lol!

It just seems like you have a problem leaving stuff alone :). Just let it grow. It needs every leaf and shoot to help push a new root system. When the tree has a full roots system it will back bud all over. The ones I dug and left alone survived the ones that were repotted after the first year all died. The largest one doing the best hasnt had the roots/pot touched in three years. The tree you pictured needs to fill the pot with roots before you start removing any more.
So realistically this thing couldn't be put into anything resembling a shallow pot for 2-4yrs i'd assume? Because I'm doubting that mass of roots I pictured is going to be a 1-step cut, more likely to need to be done in 2 phases (unlesss you'd recommend otherwise? Am still unsure what my game-plan should be for the roots, all i know is 'not now' ;D )
[edited-in: you say it needs to fill the pot with roots- I didn't prune much of that root-ball that's originally pictured, so that pot was already mostly roots when setup, I didn't need to add a ton of substrate to fill-out that container! Unless loropetalum grows roots surprisingly slow or something, I expect the container to fill with roots by end of summer at the latest, I mean I basically squeezed it into that pot!]

What do you suspect killed the ones you re-potted? Did you bare-root them or something? Or just too-aggressive a root-pruning?

And I have a problem w/ taking my mind off them, I don't go out there poking & prodding at stuff haha ;D I just want to do whatever will get my trees where I want them in the quickest time, couldn't care less whether the right path is to intervene or not, just want to be doing it right you know? :)
 

SU2

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some pics, the one that's blooming I collected about a month ago. I cut it back really hard and turned out to have an interesting windswept shape to it after the cutting. I left no foliage on it and it budded out about two weeks after collection.
Reminds me of an ilex I collected in dec and just cut-back, totally has to be a wind-swept:
19700603_141242.jpg
[note- that ilex's left-most end is at the large pink-marble rock,the cut-shoot directly behind&above the rock (and the one to the left of that) are a different tree!]

Am starting to think I should've cut a few of those back further, will see where it buds and let it run for a while!


Your ruby's look good & healthy, I've gotta say I'm intrigued at the flowering- I didn't think they were that vigorous with their flowering, am surprised to see flowers on such short/juvenile growth! Is it the case w/ ruby's that, like so many other terminal-flowering trees&shrubs, that once a particular shoot starts flowering, that particular tip is essentially *not* going to lengthen any further? And that, to increase girth of that branch's base (for future cut-backs as you develop structure), you'd be cutting-off the flowering parts so that the next-lowest, non-flowering branchlet/node can become the new leader for that branch?
After a year w/ bougies I'm still having trouble balancing that concept into my prunings, that once a branch goes into flowering it's changed from an indeterminate branch to a determinate branch (and, as I understand it, can only continue growing by having a new growing-tip from a shoot further-down the branch that had not flowered...)

Ruby's have such unique & interesting flowers, it's the first tree that I'm actually looking forward to having a proper canopy to support a big 'ole blooming (and that's saying something, considering my collection is almost entirely bougies & some crapes, most others I only have 1 or 2 specimen of that species like some jades/ficus/royal poinciana/oak, 90%+ of my collection are bougs/crapes and I strive my hardest to keep them out of bloom lol, when I see a node beginning a flower I get the same feeling as when I see a weed somewhere it shouldn't be, have even looked into hormonal products to prevent flowering rofl!!)

[edited-to-add: just want to clarify that that ilex is in such a DE-heavy mix (I use DE&perlite blend as my primary ingredient in most containers) because that's not a regular pot/bowl it's a colander and, on the benches, my colander plants dry-out like crazy! Have actually been putting some inside other, regular bowls to prevent the rapid drying, I suspect a several-millimeter gap is still sufficient to air-prune the roots that reach the edges!]
 

JoeH

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It just seems like you have a problem leaving stuff alone :). Just let it grow. It needs every leaf and shoot to help push a new root system. When the tree has a full roots system it will back bud all over. The ones I dug and left alone survived the ones that were repotted after the first year all died. The largest one doing the best hasnt had the roots/pot touched in three years. The tree you pictured needs to fill the pot with roots before you start removing any more.
yeah, I see a lot of " I collected this in December and just cut it back now." from the OP. 3 months after collecting. Just quit fidgeting with the trees. Its not a race, its a marathon, one that takes years.
 

SU2

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just wait till 90s in May if you want to see drying out quickly. That's why I don't use a well draining soil.
Oh I know I was doing this last summer!! Will be doing more water-retentive mixes and probably get back into top-dressing my hungriest specimen that tend towards drying-out quickest :)


yeah, I see a lot of " I collected this in December and just cut it back now." from the OP. 3 months after collecting. Just quit fidgeting with the trees. Its not a race, its a marathon, one that takes years.
There's literally just one single incidence of this besides the one in-question there's no need to make it seem like I'm doing something wrong that I'm not - so I've erred w/ the ruby a little (well, if it dies - if it doesn't it's hard to say it erred, though I guess the obvious retort to that would be 'but it'd be sooo much stronger if it'd had the extra 20% buds that you removed from it', which isn't something I'd really know)

The only other specimen that'd constitute this "a lot" charge is the one I just posted, the ilex, a specimen collected close to 3mo ago that I collected w/ a huge root-ball and didn't cut-back at the time (unless you count a couple branches snapped during transport) For months it sat like this:
19700403_194705.jpg

It took the transplant quite well - not that surprising given what I knew of the species and how great a root-ball I was able to get with it (it's in a colander that's inside another bucket, I know that setup looks funny ;p ) I discussed how to handle this w/ other FL growers on another forum and it was described to me as a process of waiting til it's out of dormancy and starts growing, at which point I'd prune to have it back-bud. That's exactly what I did, and it's back-budding great. But that was wrong? I should've let it grow as a bush a while? How long? I get that things take time, I just don't see any point in taking more time than needed- I certainly don't want to set anything back by being too aggressive though so truly want to know the reasoning why cutting that ilex was so bad (it's the only dec collection that got anything done to it besides the pretty minimal cut-backs on the ruby, the collected 'cavernous myrtle', laurel oak, BC's etc are not being touched at all)

I'm not 'fidgeting' with anything I'm doing precisely & only what I find to be appropriate - are you guys suggesting that this ilex, which suffered virtually no transplant shock, came out of dormancy and started growing vigorously and was then pruned back, should instead have been left to grow-out? Why on earth would I do that? Am unsure if you think the thing's not mature enough / thick enough to be cut but it's going to be a small specimen (and is poor stock regardless) so I've got no intention of thickening it up, only dwarfing it. If the concern is over its health- it had months in its new container, it had almost nil signs of being upset at (a very good) transplant, and was vigorously beginning is summer growth when I cut it & is continuing to do so w/ its back-budding now. Am really uncertain what the 'mistake' I committed here was and dislike that it's being portrayed as me having some impulse-control issue where I'm just out doing stuff willy-nilly, I may do tiny things of that nature (I pinched the tip of 1 of ~30 shoots on a crape to see how it'd respond - I don't consider that a problem and would do it again) but things like pruning that ilex were deliberate and thought-out and I'm truly uncertain why you guys think it was the wrong thing to do, so far as the ruby well OK I did cut-back on it to reduce some of the length on the branches since it was coming-in so vigorously, maybe it'll just continue on growing vigorously and then drop-dead I guess but am kind of doubting that, if it dies I'm sure it'll be related to reducing its root-ball and not having removed some extra hardwood / some buds from a tree that had a gigantic root-ball!
 

revolution

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Su2...Did your Lorapetalum survive? I collected a few yesterday and cut back extremely hard. These were larger shrubs likely in the ground for 30-40 years. Trunks with taper are 4-6” at base! I was able to take tons of roots. It had many fine feeder roots. I took woody roots out and was left with a root mass 20” in dia and 6-8” deep root ball. I planted them in huge pre drilled wiskey barrel liners with heavily amended quality potting mix. I am seeing mixed info on back budding in old wood. Im hoping that the root mass i have will provide ample stored energy for profuse back budding.
 

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JoeH

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Su2...Did your Lorapetalum survive? I collected a few yesterday and cut back extremely hard. These were larger shrubs likely in the ground for 30-40 years. Trunks with taper are 4-6” at base! I was able to take tons of roots. It had many fine feeder roots. I took woody roots out and was left with a root mass 20” in dia and 6-8” deep root ball. I planted them in huge pre drilled wiskey barrel liners with heavily amended quality potting mix. I am seeing mixed info on back budding in old wood. Im hoping that the root mass i have will provide ample stored energy for profuse back budding.
yes they do back bud on old growth, just sit back and see what happens, just let it recover and push out new shoots.
 
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