Hawthorn Collecting 2017

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
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appears they pushed a little growth this summer and died.

@rockm and @Zach Smith and a few others if I'm not mistaken....
Say its not a good idea to cut them in the ground.
Never tried it, but always thought it was a good idea.

This is the first bit of evidence I'm actually seeing ringing this true.
That they die.

Still doesn't make any sense to me....

Sorce
 

Zach Smith

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12-29-17
Went to check on the trees that I left in the ground last year. Had not been this summer due to Snakes and was looking forward to the 2 I left, really thought they would have been doing good... not.
It appears they pushed a little growth this summer and died.
View attachment 172796 View attachment 172797

I think 1 of the ones I collected has died at end of summer also. But we have cold enough temps that I can go and collect more in a few weeks. Will try the same, leave a couple in the ground, may just cut the top off and wait a year before cutting the roots. And bring a couple home.
My Dad went and got to walk around, he has stories of being in these woods as a young boy, life was different then... he has seen a lot of change in this ole World.... "It Was a Good Day"
Why in the world would you chop a tree in the woods, then expect it to be able to survive with 95% of its foliage gone and all that shade overhead? Your success rate with hawthorns should be 90% plus. But that means you lift them in late winter, chop roots way back and seal the top chop. Easy. Now, hawthorn has tough wood so if you go out with a shovel then you get what you deserve. A handsaw at minimum, but the cordless reciprocating saw is God's gift to bonsai collectors.
 

rockm

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As you have seen, chopping and leaving in the ground in the woods is not a great practice.

In doing so, you have removed the green growth that supports the roots. Additionally, in some cases by removing the top and all green growth, you have eliminated the tree's ability to compete with neighboring trees, which may overshadow the stump. Trees are not just sitting in the woods growing. They are in competition with other trees, under stress from a variety of sources, including drought, flooding, animals, wind etc. In chopping the trunk, you upset a balance that the tree may (or in most cases) may not be able to compensate for. By chopping and collecting all at once, moving the tree to unoccupied soil in a location where you eliminate competition and provide for its new needs, the tree is able to recover in most cases.
 

Ry2Tree2

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What the people have said above me makes sense in the context of trunk chopping, but for root pruning - if you have the luxyet of time - pruning half the big roots and collecting the next year after doing the other half should be sound practice.

The half that are not pruned can support the tree in times of drought, and the top growth which was not chopped can support new root growth.
 

rockm

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What the people have said above me makes sense in the context of trunk chopping, but for root pruning - if you have the luxyet of time - pruning half the big roots and collecting the next year after doing the other half should be sound practice.

The half that are not pruned can support the tree in times of drought, and the top growth which was not chopped can support new root growth.

This can also be risky and mostly unnecessary with deciduous species I'm familiar with. Oaks MAY be an exception, but for the most part, deciduous tree species here in the Mid-Atlantic and into the south rarely need such delicate collection treatment. "All at once" collection works with just about any species I've dug here in Va. and in Texas.

Specifically, I would NOT use the partial root pruning method on Carolina hornbeam. It doesn't work for the most part for that species and doesn't buy you anything when it does. Carolina hornbeam is best collected all at once or it typically croaks...
 

Zach Smith

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What the people have said above me makes sense in the context of trunk chopping, but for root pruning - if you have the luxyet of time - pruning half the big roots and collecting the next year after doing the other half should be sound practice.

The half that are not pruned can support the tree in times of drought, and the top growth which was not chopped can support new root growth.
Well, I'd respectfully ask how many years of experience you have in pursuing this technique and what are the survival stats? As Mark pointed out, you harm the balance by chopping the top and leaving the tree to attempt to recover. Now turn this concept around: you'll chop half the roots and leave all the canopy. There's a huge problem with this, and it's all about where the tree is getting its water and nutrients. We know from research that a tree's roots extend far past the crown's profile, and this means that trees are "foragers" for lack of a better term. When you chop those roots back, even half of them, you effectively kill off half the tree's ability to feed itself. Is all that crown going to survive this? If you're talking woodland, forget it. If the tree is in full sun, expect those chopped roots to die. Now, if you can control the immediate area and ensure good soil and timely watering up near that trunk, it can make it. But ... if you can visit this tree daily to care for it, why not just lift and take it to the house?
 

ml_work

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Thanks for the good information. I guess I was thinking of how I had read about getting an old juniper and cutting the roots while in the ground. I cannot remember the term used, but now that I think of it, you were to do one side, wait a year and do the next, but not cut the top. I figured since trees do better in the ground, this would be a really good idea. But as Zack and RockM have explained, cutting the top and roots at the same time left it nothing to grow. I thought it would have full small roots .... with as many as are growing there it did not hurt to try, but I don't want to kill a tree no matter how many are there. Guess I will just collect and bring home.
Hack Yeah, if you read the first post I used a hand saw and wore me out. The next time I borrowed a reciprocating saw, much easier.... plan to buy one in the future ... will keep you in mind if I need one before then ;)
 

rockm

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Thanks for the good information. I guess I was thinking of how I had read about getting an old juniper and cutting the roots while in the ground. I cannot remember the term used, but now that I think of it, you were to do one side, wait a year and do the next, but not cut the top. I figured since trees do better in the ground, this would be a really good idea. But as Zack and RockM have explained, cutting the top and roots at the same time left it nothing to grow. I thought it would have full small roots .... with as many as are growing there it did not hurt to try, but I don't want to kill a tree no matter how many are there. Guess I will just collect and bring home.
Hack Yeah, if you read the first post I used a hand saw and wore me out. The next time I borrowed a reciprocating saw, much easier.... plan to buy one in the future ... will keep you in mind if I need one before then ;)
Things are different for conifers. Stepped collection of roots will work with them, as they tend to be touchier with their roots. DECIDUOUS trees are more resilient and amenable to being dug and chopped all at once.
 

Ry2Tree2

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Things are different for conifers. Stepped collection of roots will work with them, as they tend to be touchier with their roots. DECIDUOUS trees are more resilient and amenable to being dug and chopped all at once.

I'll admit my collecting is in its infancy and my experience is more conifer and mountain specific. I started collecting deciduous species last fall, so thank you all for correcting me with respect to the best practice of woodland deciduous trees.
 

rockm

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I'll admit my collecting is in its infancy and my experience is more conifer and mountain specific. I started collecting deciduous species last fall, so thank you all for correcting me with respect to the best practice of woodland deciduous trees.
Not really correcting you. Collecting Conifers and deciduous trees are two different ball games.
 

Toshi

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I'd love an update if you have one for us, really enjoying this thread.
 

Solaris

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Now, if you can control the immediate area and ensure good soil and timely watering up near that trunk, it can make it. But ... if you can visit this tree daily to care for it, why not just lift and take it to the house?

So... hypothetically, would it be a good idea to do a trunk chop in the ground with a tree in your yard? Or would digging it up still be the better option?
 

Zach Smith

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So... hypothetically, would it be a good idea to do a trunk chop in the ground with a tree in your yard? Or would digging it up still be the better option?
Sure, if you're developing the trunk using the grow and chop method. I do this all the time when field-growing trees. Remember, when you lift a tree the trunk thickening stops.
 

ml_work

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I'd love an update if you have one for us, really enjoying this thread.
Toshi, the best of the 2 died, I may have already posted about that. The 1 that did make it is doing ok, slower grow than I would like but it is alive. It got some yellow / gold spots on it soon after it leafed out. Per Sorce suggestion I removed the leaves with the most damage. It still has spots and no new growth. I did spray with Daconil but it did not seem to help. I had just given it a good soaking before I took these pictures.
Hawthron-1.jpgHawthron-2.jpg
 
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