Help for Black Pine backbudding

[minkes]

I have Pinus Nigra (European Black Pine) in my garden as a decorative tree. I wired it and tried to make into some shape. It has very strong candles and is very healthy, but has no backbudding. It seem that Pinus Nigra is very hard to backbudd. Maybe you should consider to graft branches in places you need them as last option. Anyway your tree look awesome

 

[bonsai-max]

I use Fulvic acid and kelp powders @ 5/2 ratio and promotes lots of backbud.Also a tiny bit of yucca will be a surfectant and sperad the water driplets for waxy leaves……1/64th tsp pr gal…….is also a mild fungicide.

A friends of mine said that he have very good results with this new product:

https://www.bayer.com/en/id/ambition

What do you think ?
Any chance to put together a food management schedule for single flush pines since I have also a scots pine in arrive ?
For me can be very useful

 

[bonsai-max]

Hi,

seems that is impossible here in Switzerland have the Magic Gro, any other suggestion for well feed my Pine ? I have already buyed osmocote, fulvic acid and kelp...

 

[Potawatomi13]

Is tree Austrian black pine or Japanese? Personally use 20-20-20 blue crystals dissolved in H2O. Uses various brand names, works great. Feed weekly during growing season for tree in development. Your tree is WEAK! Stop using refinement technique further weakening tree when needing to grow strength to ramify.

 

[bonsai-max]

Austrian...
I have access to this one here, same npk titles

https://www.bonsai.de/complete-mineral-fertilizer-p-21927.html?language=en

 

[yashu]

Is Austrian Black Pine similar to JBP in that if you want back budding you must leave some older needles? It is my understanding that buds on JBP are formed at existing needles (needle buds) and if you pluck all the needles the only back budding that can occur is at nodes. Unfortunately I don’t know if this is exclusive to JBP or if it’s also relevant to ABP.

 

[minkes]

JBP is two flush growth and Pinus Nigra (europe black pine) is single flush growth. So it is totally different approach. But leaving leaves for places, where you need backbudding is good for any pine.

 

[yashu]

Right, I understand the differences, it was similarities I was unsure of and it was the technique of leaving past seasons needles I was referring to.

 

[yashu]

So…

I remove the old needles and some of the new ones always according to the plants strength.

That might be a practice you want to refrain from for a few years…

But here is the problem, the branch always develope a single or two big buds in apex and nothing back, so I really are not able to backbudding the branch.

So that you’ll have less of that and more back budding from the needle sites (encouraging needle buds)

 

[minkes]

Right, I understand the differences, it was similarities I was unsure of and it was the technique of leaving past seasons needles I was referring to.

Best for backbudding in my experience is to feed the tree well, have it in good free-drain substrate, expose that parts to sun light and not plucking leaves where i want backbudding. But as I wrote earlier Pinus Nigra from my experience is very very hard to backbudd. Next season I will try to let mine to grow freely and after hardening of candels prune it harder in hope to promote backbudding. My pinus silvestris trees are very very easy to backbudd but my nigra is still refusing it.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

With my P. nigra I only get back budding on 3-4 year old wood. Further back forget it. As an experiment I even tried removing some of the thicker old bark as I read that might work but it didn’t. Also full sun at least 6-8 hours per day in summer is a must. With good strong growth comes tons of buds. Last spring I had so many I had to pluck 6-10 buds off each branch and now I am contemplating cutting back the ends of the branches just to push the growth back. This fall I have been needle plucking to thin them out and expose more of the branch surface to further increase buds. I am follwing a similar strategy with my JBP in addition to candle cutting to get a second flush.

 

[yashu]

I decided to go out and give my nigra a look over and I can’t honestly find any rhyme or reason to where it back buds, it just kind of does where and when it wants. I’ve never tried to encourage it though.


I’ve never plucked needle on this tree but rather just clean out the dead ones in the spring when I can just shake out most of the loose foliage (I’m pretty lazy with this tree )… it’s also a big older tree, more potted niwaki than bonsai really.

 

[Bonsaiforlife]

Is tree Austrian black pine or Japanese? Personally use 20-20-20 blue crystals dissolved in H2O. Uses various brand names, works great. Feed weekly during growing season for tree in development. Your tree is WEAK! Stop using refinement technique further weakening tree when needing to grow strength to ramify.

Spot on. Trees will backbud when they are healthy and vigorous. Get the tree healthy and let it go for a year, don't touch it. When its full and pushing growth then you can start refining the tree and it will backbud nicely for you. Good luck.

 

[bonsai-max]

Roger, will feed more and leave untouched next year, but is an old Pine so I have fear that if he make long candle that I didn't touch then will be more leggy if doesn't backbud.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Roger, will feed more and leave untouched next year, but is an old Pine so I have fear that if he make long candle that I didn't touch then will be more leggy if doesn't backbud.

Have a little faith baby.

 

[minkes]

I use Fulvic acid and kelp powders @ 5/2 ratio and promotes lots of backbud.Also a tiny bit of yucca will be a surfectant and sperad the water driplets for waxy leaves……1/64th tsp pr gal…….is also a mild fungicide.

RAW Kelp

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RAW Full Up

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RAW Yucca

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View attachment 460184

@cmeg1 Are you sure yours is European Black Pine (Pinus Nigra)? Isn’t it JBP? They are not comparable with backbudding.

 

[cmeg1]

@cmeg1 Are you sure yours is European Black Pine (Pinus Nigra)? Isn’t it JBP? They are not comparable with backbudding.

Definately JBP

 

[minkes]

I made photos of mine. It will stay as garden tree and is really strong growing. I left only foliage where I want backbuds to occur. Till now no success, but as garden tree I will go with what I get, so no big deal for me, but as a bonsai from Nigra it would be disappointing.

 

[minkes]

This is shoot (candle) from this growing season. They grow very big and thick as the tree is in the ground.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Roger, will feed more and leave untouched next year, but is an old Pine so I have fear that if he make long candle that I didn't touch then will be more leggy if doesn't backbud.

Try the scots pine approach: only cut during shoot extension for balancing - making all the candles the same size - and wait for the new growth to harden off, and just before fall or in early fall (that's 15 september for me, more or less), cut the new shoots back to 6-8 needle pairs.
In the first year, the response will be somewhat moderate, maybe nothing at all. In the second year you do this, you'll get back buds.
But the tree has to be strong and healthy.

Will it always work? No.
But I'm starting to believe in the idea that pines are just like any other plant; if you cut a bunch of solar panels, it will respond with new buds to keep the juices flowing and to counter the loss of solar panels.
The only difference seems to be the timing. In some plants that doesn't matter, in pines it does.
I've combined this technique with needle cutting (cut them to stubs instead of pulling them off, which preserves the needle buds this way) and it seems to work for scots pines.