Help for Brazilian rain tree

MattE

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Hey all. Got the BRT about a month ago.
I know it's loving the lights as it's pushing alof of new growth. But seems to also be dropping alot if leaves turning yellow and then dropping off. Not sure if I'm under watering or over watering. I did transplant it but pretty much only slip potted it..I didn't really unravel roots just trimmed a couple long ones attached to draining screens from the last pot. I have lightly fetalized it.
Any ideas or comments would be a big help.

Yes it will be outside once it isn't -30C
 

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MattE

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I don't keep anything inside but mine also lose leaves on and off throughout the year, more often in the winter. I don't think it's anything to worry about as long as it's pushing new growth.
Thank you for your reply, i was only worrying because it seemed like daily i was getting new yellow leaves that dropped lol i was worried soon it wont have leaves!!!
thank you for some insight
 

MattE

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Don't water it at all for at least 10 days ( I think )
way to dry in our house to not water that long , its very dry here in the winter , heat runs alot and not much moisture in the air , have to run a humidifier in the house lol
 

MattE

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Just a spray mist bottle of water
yeah i do mist it and keep humidifier going , trying to find out from people who have BRTS if they yellow from to much water or not enough , i know alot of plants usually get black tips from over watering ect. also could be thrwoing a bit of a fit from the slip potting and move im guessing
 

LittleDingus

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yeah i do mist it and keep humidifier going , trying to find out from people who have BRTS if they yellow from to much water or not enough , i know alot of plants usually get black tips from over watering ect. also could be thrwoing a bit of a fit from the slip potting and move im guessing

In general (so beware!), yellow that curls and crisps is too little water. Yellow that sags and looks wilty is too much water.

Also in general, BRT foliage is tender and seasonal and the tree itself is finicky with regards to changing conditions. They will often drop foliage when moved...ven brand new foliage. Dropped foliage is often yellow that turns tan/crispy like fall leaves. This makes room for new foliage.

I get a nice pile of dead leaves under mine shortly after they come in for the winter. I've often thought I should defoilate them when bringing them in to keep them from glittering up my house!

We tend to think of root rot as an over watering issue, but it's typically more of an anaerobic issue. Properly oxygenated soil has less rot issues regardless of how wet it is. It's when the water promotes fungal and/or algee growth that removes the oxygen that the roots really start to suffer. That can happen in some pot conditions regardless of how dry your home is and how underwatered you feel the plant is. Less likely to happen in an open bonsai mix than peat moss...but root bound plants can be overwatered in dry environments.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Don't water it at all for at least 10 days ( I think )

This is terrible advice. Never put a calendar schedule on watering. The best moisture meter ever invented is the human finger. Feel the soil, gauge the moisture level. BRT want to go from wet, to moist to just about bone dry, then wet again. The trick is to avoid too much time in the "bone dry" phase, as bone dry damages new root tips. The more time in the "damp, but not soggy" zone you can get the better.

The cooler it is the more time on the dry side a BRT will prefer. Temperatures below 60 F or below 15 C, and the BRT really just about goes dormant. When cool, below 60 F, it can go closer to bone dry for longer periods of time. When it warms back up, water demand will increase.

The smaller the diameter of the trunk, the less resistance to drought for a BRT. A BRT with beer can diameter trunk can go a week while bone dry. A thin seedling might only last hours bone dry.

In general (so beware!), yellow that curls and crisps is too little water. Yellow that sags and looks wilty is too much water.

Also in general, BRT foliage is tender and seasonal and the tree itself is finicky with regards to changing conditions. They will often drop foliage when moved...ven brand new foliage. Dropped foliage is often yellow that turns tan/crispy like fall leaves. This makes room for new foliage.

I get a nice pile of dead leaves under mine shortly after they come in for the winter. I've often thought I should defoilate them when bringing them in to keep them from glittering up my house!

We tend to think of root rot as an over watering issue, but it's typically more of an anaerobic issue. Properly oxygenated soil has less rot issues regardless of how wet it is. It's when the water promotes fungal and/or algee growth that removes the oxygen that the roots really start to suffer. That can happen in some pot conditions regardless of how dry your home is and how underwatered you feel the plant is. Less likely to happen in an open bonsai mix than peat moss...but root bound plants can be overwatered in dry environments.

This is EXCELLENT advise.
 

WNC Bonsai

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When I bring mine in each fall it loses about 1/3 of its leaves. Then it slows and gradually drops the rest until by spring it only has a few left when it is time to go outside. My wife hates this tree because it is so messy. I think it really is just the reality of trying to keep it in a heated house even though the humidity stays around 50%. I figure it might need a plastic bag greenhouse to keep the humidity up enough to prevent the leaf drop in winter. Right now it has stabilized after the first mass leaf drop since late October.
 

Pixar

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This is terrible advice. Never put a calendar schedule on watering.
Thank Leo , I've just had the same issue with one of my re-potted Tamarinds and I've just stop the watering schedule and created some extra holes in the soil to try and give it more airflow .
I will wait a couple of days and let you know
 

Carol 83

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I did transplant it but pretty much only slip potted it..I didn't really unravel roots just trimmed a couple long ones attached to draining screens from the last pot. I have lightly fetalized it.
BRT's and all tropical's really are best repotted in the summer when they are growing vigorously. It really doesn't look bad, they typically shed some leaves when brought inside. I water mine every other day. 10 days without watering, even inside and they would be dead.
 

LittleDingus

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When I bring mine in each fall it loses about 1/3 of its leaves. Then it slows and gradually drops the rest until by spring it only has a few left when it is time to go outside. My wife hates this tree because it is so messy. I think it really is just the reality of trying to keep it in a heated house even though the humidity stays around 50%. I figure it might need a plastic bag greenhouse to keep the humidity up enough to prevent the leaf drop in winter. Right now it has stabilized after the first mass leaf drop since late October.

My experience is it is more light level related than humidity. I have two. Both moved inside at the same time. One moved under a high intensity light panel, the other under a lower intensity one. My humidity meter claims 45% humidity. Both dropped leaves. The lower intensity one dropped nearly all its leaves and is putting on little new growth. The higher intensity one dropped about half its leaves and is putting on robust new growth...though mostly in the upper canopy directly under the lights.

If your light is not strong enough to cast a shadow, it's likely too weak to support new growth and the BRT is likely to sulk until spring...again, my experience. Yours may vary.

As far as tenting indoors, I'd advise against it. It's difficult to get proper air flow to prevent other issues like fungal growth. Commercial grow tents can be fit with fans to provide ventilation. I've found mine cumbersome and not worth the expense for something like BRT's though.
 

LittleDingus

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Thank Leo , I've just had the same issue with one of my re-potted Tamarinds and I've just stop the watering schedule and created some extra holes in the soil to try and give it more airflow .
I will wait a couple of days and let you know

Schedules can work but you need to be aware of changes in environment and adjust the schedule accordingly.

My outdoor trees get watered every morning in the summer. In the winter, not so much. I have an orchid I keep fully under lights that was on a 3 day water schedule for years in my previous home...but I repotted it every year to keep the soil from breaking down so I could maintain the same schedule...otherwise, I would need less frequent watering as the soil would clog up.

Schedules can work...but you need to pay attention to the plant and the environment to know when to adjust them :) I use DE as my primary soil partly because I can tell by surface color how dry the pot is. I will also pick up any pot in question to see how heavy it is...which is a surprisingly good indicator of when to water!

With experience and consideration, my watering schedule and these indicators help inform me of problems. If I've been watering every other day and the environment hadn't changed and the pot is still heavy when I go to water, maybe there is a soil issue to look into, for example.

...and wow that's too many words to convey an incomplete thought :(
 

MattE

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Thank you all for the input.
im going to assume its a bit stressed and maybe over watering? i water it once a day but noting this crazy and it is in fast draining bonsai soil. also dry in the house my Serissa and other plants get watered daily and then misted heavy and they love it.
Im thinking my Lighting is ok as that is 3 full spectrum grow lights on it ( LED no heat ) and its been pushing new growth since i got it. all tho even some new growth is going yellow.. the yellow leaves are not crispy.
I have been using my finger to check right down to the root mas and it feels dry so i water but maybe its root ball is holding moisture.
I did have to report it was so over rooted the roots were growing through the bottom of the pot and it was SOO stinky from sitting in the guys humidity tray i bought it from made my house stink. ( roots didnt look rotten or smell thank goodness )
 

Paradox

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Thank you all for the input.
im going to assume its a bit stressed and maybe over watering? i water it once a day but noting this crazy and it is in fast draining bonsai soil. also dry in the house my Serissa and other plants get watered daily and then misted heavy and they love it.
Im thinking my Lighting is ok as that is 3 full spectrum grow lights on it ( LED no heat ) and its been pushing new growth since i got it. all tho even some new growth is going yellow.. the yellow leaves are not crispy.
I have been using my finger to check right down to the root mas and it feels dry so i water but maybe its root ball is holding moisture.
I did have to report it was so over rooted the roots were growing through the bottom of the pot and it was SOO stinky from sitting in the guys humidity tray i bought it from made my house stink. ( roots didnt look rotten or smell thank goodness )

BRT do tend to shed leaves on their own. As long as new growth is happening, I wouldn't be worried. I have 4 BRT under fairly strong lights in my basement right now because it's winter. I water them every day to every other day now. Soil is fast draining.

Note: they will have a period of slow to no growth for a month or two in January and February but it usually picks back up in March.

To learn your tree's watering needs, I recommend the chopstick method. Stick a wooden chopstick into the soil and leave it there. Pull it out and check it once a day. When it is almost dry, water the tree. Do not wait until it is completely dry on a BRT. BRT do not like to dry out.
 

LittleDingus

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Thank you all for the input.
im going to assume its a bit stressed and maybe over watering? i water it once a day but noting this crazy and it is in fast draining bonsai soil. also dry in the house my Serissa and other plants get watered daily and then misted heavy and they love it.
Im thinking my Lighting is ok as that is 3 full spectrum grow lights on it ( LED no heat ) and its been pushing new growth since i got it. all tho even some new growth is going yellow.. the yellow leaves are not crispy.
I have been using my finger to check right down to the root mas and it feels dry so i water but maybe its root ball is holding moisture.
I did have to report it was so over rooted the roots were growing through the bottom of the pot and it was SOO stinky from sitting in the guys humidity tray i bought it from made my house stink. ( roots didnt look rotten or smell thank goodness )

Stinky is bad. May be some algee growing in there somewhere...that would be from overwet and can be localized.

Some of my indoor drip trays are overcrowded and have nowhere to drain. Because they are too crowded and I'm too lazy to clean them out often enough :( the ditrus accumulates. They'll start to trap moisture vs letting it evaporate...even in low humidity. By spring they sometimes have a slimy layer of muck that smells sickly. The high moisture and low air flow creates favorable conditions for anaerobic rot.

Stinky usually means anaerobic rot = bad. Healthy rot from, say, mulch decay tends to have a sweeter smell and is beneficial and not likely to cause root rot.

Again, too many words from me, but this is where pot lifting really helps. Learn to feel the weight of the pot and you'll start to be able to tell when it is holding too much moisture (extra weight) even when areas you can reach feel dry.

For what it's worth, the spotty leaves still on the tree don't look like mine do when they drop due to coming inside. The green leaves that fell off also don't look like mine do when relocating. Mine fully yellow before dropping and turn tan and dry shortly after.

Spotting like that can be from cold damage. More likely from bug damage...think spider mites. The tree on whole looks healthy and new growth suggests it's not in mortal peril ;) But my opinion-from-afar (or from-the-safety-of-anonanimity if you prefer!) is that what you're seeing is neither watering nor relocation related. Mist more often and look carefully for dew on webbing amongst the foliage. BRTs drop leaves so fast I've not noticed that spider mites can get a solid foothold on them...but I do see webbing on mine from time to time.
 

Paradox

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Stinky is bad. May be some algee growing in there somewhere...that would be from overwet and can be localized.

Some of my indoor drip trays are overcrowded and have nowhere to drain. Because they are too crowded and I'm too lazy to clean them out often enough :( the ditrus accumulates. They'll start to trap moisture vs letting it evaporate...even in low humidity. By spring they sometimes have a slimy layer of muck that smells sickly. The high moisture and low air flow creates favorable conditions for anaerobic rot.

Stinky usually means anaerobic rot = bad. Healthy rot from, say, mulch decay tends to have a sweeter smell and is beneficial and not likely to cause root rot.

Again, too many words from me, but this is where pot lifting really helps. Learn to feel the weight of the pot and you'll start to be able to tell when it is holding too much moisture (extra weight) even when areas you can reach feel dry.

For what it's worth, the spotty leaves still on the tree don't look like mine do when they drop due to coming inside. The green leaves that fell off also don't look like mine do when relocating. Mine fully yellow before dropping and turn tan and dry shortly after.

Spotting like that can be from cold damage. More likely from bug damage...think spider mites. The tree on whole looks healthy and new growth suggests it's not in mortal peril ;) But my opinion-from-afar (or from-the-safety-of-anonanimity if you prefer!) is that what you're seeing is neither watering nor relocation related. Mist more often and look carefully for dew on webbing amongst the foliage. BRTs drop leaves so fast I've not noticed that spider mites can get a solid foothold on them...but I do see webbing on mine from time to time.

This is the reason I put small 2 inch tiles under the sides of my ficus and BRT pots so they don't sit in the excess water that drains out into their trays.
 

MattE

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Stinky is bad. May be some algee growing in there somewhere...that would be from overwet and can be localized.

Some of my indoor drip trays are overcrowded and have nowhere to drain. Because they are too crowded and I'm too lazy to clean them out often enough :( the ditrus accumulates. They'll start to trap moisture vs letting it evaporate...even in low humidity. By spring they sometimes have a slimy layer of muck that smells sickly. The high moisture and low air flow creates favorable conditions for anaerobic rot.

Stinky usually means anaerobic rot = bad. Healthy rot from, say, mulch decay tends to have a sweeter smell and is beneficial and not likely to cause root rot.

Again, too many words from me, but this is where pot lifting really helps. Learn to feel the weight of the pot and you'll start to be able to tell when it is holding too much moisture (extra weight) even when areas you can reach feel dry.

For what it's worth, the spotty leaves still on the tree don't look like mine do when they drop due to coming inside. The green leaves that fell off also don't look like mine do when relocating. Mine fully yellow before dropping and turn tan and dry shortly after.

Spotting like that can be from cold damage. More likely from bug damage...think spider mites. The tree on whole looks healthy and new growth suggests it's not in mortal peril ;) But my opinion-from-afar (or from-the-safety-of-anonanimity if you prefer!) is that what you're seeing is neither watering nor relocation related. Mist more often and look carefully for dew on webbing amongst the foliage. BRTs drop leaves so fast I've not noticed that spider mites can get a solid foothold on them...but I do see webbing on mine from time to time.
To be fair they may look different because i lightly touch the yellowing leaves to just make them fall off as to not waste plant energy on them.
i did a check for bugs and couldnt find anything ! but even some newer growth is turning yellow. i guess all i can do is water it less see if it gets better and then water it more and see if it gets better lmao
 

LittleDingus

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To be fair they may look different because i lightly touch the yellowing leaves to just make them fall off as to not waste plant energy on them.
i did a check for bugs and couldnt find anything ! but even some newer growth is turning yellow. i guess all i can do is water it less see if it gets better and then water it more and see if it gets better lmao

If the leaves drop readily when tapped, the tree is not wasting energy on them. They have already been jettisoned...the petioles have been sealed off and nothing is flowing into/out of the leaf. That often happens long before the leaf yellows. It can take a long time for chlorophyl to full die out. Once closed off, the petiole linkage weakens over time until the leaf falls off naturally. This is why foliage can hang on in tornado force winds in the spring yet fall with the slightest hint of a breeze in fall.

In actuality, the leaf isn't "turning yellow". In actuality, the green is dying off to reveal the remaining color. The same thing happens with fall colors. The chlorophyl dies off revealing the underlying leaf color...yellow for BRTs, red, for maples, etc...The opposite happens with new foliage. Young BRT foliage is bright green because it hasn't generated a lot of chlorophyl yet. Young maple leaves tend to be reds and oranges until their chlorophyl grows in. Bright light kills chlorophyl. If it kills it faster than it can be replenished, the leaves turn pale while similar leaves in shade are deep green.

I'm not sure if it will make you feel better or just clouds your situation, but I my smaller tree out to take some pictures. It looks similar size to yours...maybe a tad larger...maybe...

20221229_162047.jpg 20221229_162055.jpg

Those yellow leaves are still hanging on from when they died off after being brought inside back in October. A dozen or so fell off while simply picking up the tree. A gentle tap of the branch and these fell off:

20221229_162131.jpg

But, at the same time, the tree has started pushing new growth:

20221229_163738.jpg

This is the smaller of my two rain trees and I did not take a picture of it when I brought it in, but it had at least twice or more the foliage it has now when I first brought it inside. It was nearly entirely bare 2 weeks ago, I'm actually a little surprised at how much foliage it has today.

My larger tree is boxed in a corner and I'm a little embarrassed to post a picture of it! But here it is:

20221229_162332.jpg

It also lost about half of its foliage but it bounced back to inside conditions sooner...presumably because it is about 3 times the size of its brother: they are the same age.

If this is similar to what you're seeing, I, personally, would not change anything about the care. I think the worst thing you can do is see-saw between too little and too much water! I sometimes don't think we appreciate the timing of things enough. If the tree is in growth mode, it needs water. If you cut off that water, the tree may flip into a resting mode or root tips may dehydrate and not be ready to absorb water readily. Then we start watering it more?!? The tree has made its adjustments and we're now asking it to make new adjustments! That's a lot of stress :( The feedback loop can be very negative and the outcome worse that just letting the tree remain steady-on...

My BRTs have always looked like crap over winter...mostly because they are too small to bull through change. The larger one is starting to get to a point where it's less fussy, but the smaller one still drops leaves sometimes if I look at it cross-eyed. Maybe in another 5 years they will be large and mature enough I can put them somewhere to be seen during the winter. For now, I mostly just shove them in a corner and try not to worry about them until March...
 
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