Help Identify Type of JBPs x Progression Advice

[Shibui]

I have always thought that the bottom trunk (if not curved-induced at an early 1-2 yr phase, will be harder to bend towards the 3-4 yr period).

You would not be bending the lower trunk when it is thick. Bends also come from pruning. When a side branch becomes the new trunk there is almost always a new bend. I find that pruning bends are much more natural looking than the smooth bends from wiring and bending young trunks.

I wish to select a JBP to grow Telperion Farms style : One single Apical leader, that shoots all the way up, with an eventual total side branches removal, keeping the base branches clear of sunlight blockage. That said, the root systems must have a lot of space to grow radially.
Is this even possible? In a large colander?

Growing in a colander will just reduce the size and scale a bit. Instead of a 2m sacrifice you might just grow a 1m sacrifice trunk on the trees in the colander. Instead of reaching the trunk size goal in 5 years it may take 8 or 10 years. Everything is relative. You may be able to see in the pictures that @River's Edge pines are growing in boxes. He still gets good growth from pines with partly restricted root growth. I've also been developing smaller sized pines for bonsai in 30 cm pots. As smaller trees don't need huge thick trunks that still works OK.

Now, I just went out to each JBPs (with the exception of JBP #3) and have observed the "swelling at the whorls". The reverse taper is very obvious, with the lower trunk visibly thinner than the upper whorl. Is a pune / cut back needed at this point?

Reverse taper happens very quick when we allow all the branches to grow. Sometimes that will grow out and improve if you cut excess branches soon. Note that @River's Edge recommended cutting the thicker ones and leaving 1 or 2 smaller branches at each spot. The thicker branches add more thickening so it makes sense to get rid of those soonest. Keep branches with side shoots closer to the trunk if possible. Also consider eventual branch placement when reducing whorls. Try to keep branches on outside of curves or in different directions round the trunk as you move from low to higher.

 

[River's Edge]

@bang Saturday said "I wish to select a JBP to grow Telperion Farms style"

Telperion farms developed some amazing stock. The casual observer might think it was simply due to ground growing and the prime location. However a lot of technique and constant attention to the smaller details often goes unnoticed when describing their work.
Telperion adjusted their growing methods with continuous improvement. Make sure you understand what all that process entailed.
If you are focussing on ground growing and/or just the trunk thickness first you will have missed the complexity of the process they developed eventually. Technique and timing was important within their process.

The thicker your trunk, the older the tree, the less likely to obtain back budding on the trunk lower down for additional branching and design improvement. By the time the trunk is 3/4 inch thick wiring has a limited effect with softer gentle curves most likely! Wiring to add more exaggerated movement and turns should be done in the first two to three years of development on the lower section. Generally considered to be the section up to the first primary branch, but not always.

Trunk movement if desired needs to be developed with a combination of methods if it involves taper as well. If one wishes to avoid subtle curves then one must wire with more exaggerated movement initially as well as select carefully the angle of change for the new apical leaders as the trunk is built section by section for taper . Do not wait for wiring until the trunk gets thicker if you want to introduce movement. You can introduce change of direction with pruning but the best result will be a combination of pruning and wiring when changing apical leaders. Unless of course you wish to build with straight sections. Even then professionals often use wire and bracing to develop upright formals with taper. This allows them to keep the new apical leaders straight in line with the lower portion as it develops.

It is important to remember that growth and thickening often softens the appearance of movement, change of direction and taper. hence the importance of developing a more robust version of the desired final appearance.

 

[Srt8madness]

Man, the advice is coming heavy in this thread, excellent stuff guys.

 

[bangsaturday]

You would not be bending the lower trunk when it is thick. Bends also come from pruning. When a side branch becomes the new trunk there is almost always a new bend. I find that pruning bends are much more natural looking than the smooth bends from wiring and bending young trunks.

I have always thought (from watching videos, and reading on forums) that there is a window of opportunity for young JBPs otherwise a correction in the trunk movement in later stages will be much harder. The development of the JBP trunks in their natural state, as seen in mine, are seemingly straight up, with a couple bending to the side due to the heavy foliage on top. This is the thing that worries me as I will be hard pressed to develop most of the straight trunks in a literati style.

Growing in a colander will just reduce the size and scale a bit. Instead of a 2m sacrifice you might just grow a 1m sacrifice trunk on the trees in the colander. Instead of reaching the trunk size goal in 5 years it may take 8 or 10 years.

So the optimal way will still be ground-growing JBPs to speed up the thickening process. The thought of 8 to 10 years is really far-fetched, but JBP bonsai are created with length of time in consideration.

Reverse taper happens very quick when we allow all the branches to grow. Sometimes that will grow out and improve if you cut excess branches soon. Note that @River's Edge recommended cutting the thicker ones and leaving 1 or 2 smaller branches at each spot. The thicker branches add more thickening so it makes sense to get rid of those soonest. Keep branches with side shoots closer to the trunk if possible. Also consider eventual branch placement when reducing whorls. Try to keep branches on outside of curves or in different directions round the trunk as you move from low to higher.

Well noted. I will soon be pruner off the thicker branches.

Telperion farms developed some amazing stock. The casual observer might think it was simply due to ground growing and the prime location. However a lot of technique and constant attention to the smaller details often goes unnoticed when describing their work.
Telperion adjusted their growing methods with continuous improvement. Make sure you understand what all that process entailed.
If you are focussing on ground growing and/or just the trunk thickness first you will have missed the complexity of the process they developed eventually. Technique and timing was important within their process.

The thicker your trunk, the older the tree, the less likely to obtain back budding on the trunk lower down for additional branching and design improvement. By the time the trunk is 3/4 inch thick wiring has a limited effect with softer gentle curves most likely! Wiring to add more exaggerated movement and turns should be done in the first two to three years of development on the lower section. Generally considered to be the section up to the first primary branch, but not always.

Trunk movement if desired needs to be developed with a combination of methods if it involves taper as well. If one wishes to avoid subtle curves then one must wire with more exaggerated movement initially as well as select carefully the angle of change for the new apical leaders as the trunk is built section by section for taper . Do not wait for wiring until the trunk gets thicker if you want to introduce movement. You can introduce change of direction with pruning but the best result will be a combination of pruning and wiring when changing apical leaders. Unless of course you wish to build with straight sections. Even then professionals often use wire and bracing to develop upright formals with taper. This allows them to keep the new apical leaders straight in line with the lower portion as it develops.

It is important to remember that growth and thickening often softens the appearance of movement, change of direction and taper. hence the importance of developing a more robust version of the desired final appearance.

I will have to experiment trunk movements with younger JBP stocks, which I have about 10 incoming. Around 1-2 years old.

Yes, I do want to choose 1 or 2 from my existing 2-3 yr olds for a Telpherion Farm style of a straight upward trunk. That said, I do not have access to their information and techniques on pruning timing. I will do a search on these forums and see if I can extract more data-advice on this method.

Thanks Shibui & River's Edge~~~

Good growing fellas!

 

[Shibui]

The development of the JBP trunks in their natural state, as seen in mine, are seemingly straight up, with a couple bending to the side due to the heavy foliage on top. This is the thing that worries me as I will be hard pressed to develop most of the straight trunks in a literati style.

I mentioned earlier that we need to see not what is there now but what could be there in a few years.
Maybe this series of drawings will help understand how a straight trunk could become informal upright without bending the existing thick trunk.

This is one of your trees. Currently a straight trunk.


The main trunk is stripped of side branches for Teleperion style sacrifice trunk. Longer lower branches trimmed to keep them compact while sacrifice grows to thicken the lower trunk. Keep just 2 lower branches to minimize thickening at the node creating reverse taper.


After some years of growth the lower trunk is now thicker. The long sacrifice trunk is chopped off leaving just the few lower branches we have retained and pruned occasionally to keep them compact.
A branch on one side now becomes the main trunk. The other branch becomes a side branch. Further similar pruning along the longer branch (new trunk) will give further similar bends, branches and new leader each time - brown lines show new trunk line and main branches.


Tilt the tree to the right to bring the trunk more upright. Hoping you can trim some roots to allow for surface roots to show better nebari. Note that it may be better to tilt the tree much earlier to allow roots to grow at the new angle to form better nebari.



The tree is now a much thicker trunk with good bends using pruning and growing only. Some wiring may assist with branch placement an bends in thinner branches.