Help identifying over shaded juniper.

Rivka

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I good neighbor of mine has a large airy juniper that has been growing for decades in the deep shade of a long needle pine and is letting me work on it. I would love more info on what type it is.
it is growing in a large rounded dome mound. The foliage is actually pretty soft for juniper, and on the sunnier side, there is good growth including some juvenile foliage that is noticeably blue-green, though overwhelmingly you have uniform mature scale foliage that is a nice medium green maybe just a touch on the blueish side.
I assume a lot of its legginess is from the fairly dark shade. it's spent a LONG time being smothered with long pine needles, but I took some time today uncovering it and its shaping up to be a lovely tree underneath.
I don't have to move it any time soon, she is fine with me taking a year or more tp prep it, so I hope to learn about it and go from there.
thanks for any help identifying.


IMG_2119.jpegIMG_2120.jpegIMG_2118.jpeg
 

cbroad

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Any way to further confirm or rule out that identity
Generally a picture of the plant's habit will help some (how it grows and the plants silhouette): tall and slender, tall and broad, shrubby, prostrate, etc...

The problem with junipers are that there's probably every type of habit within their genus, and to make it more confusing many species have been hybridized which further blurs the line. Foliage color, type, and texture are affected too.

Your foliage does look more ERC to me, could also be a hybrid of virgiana of some sort. Maybe "Grey Owl," that does have more of a blue color?

The foliage looks similar to one I have, I've always called it a Parsons but that could be wrong. I scored it out of the dumpster at the greenhouse where I used to work, didn't have the tag anymore so I'm not positive. Mine is definitely more of a green type.

I'll snap a pic for comparison in a little bit.
 

cbroad

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Here's mine
IMG_20200508_171350400.jpg
Mine also does have a slight blue cast it not as much as yours does.
 

Rivka

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it grows in large loose mound with no clear leader.
the lower trunks that I have gotten too. (not the main which I have gotten too yet) are slender and graceful and swirling around the form

IMG_2124.jpeg

the considerable dome of sticks that forms that thicket below the foliage. are old pine needles and tons of dead side branches from year and years of growth and lack of anything to help thin them. the break readily like 20year old dry twigs and the clean up is going well.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Eastern red cedar - Juniper virginiana - is normally a bolt upright grower. It has a strong tendency to form a leader. Even in the shade, it will tend to be one trunk, or a "candelabra" of several vertical trunks. Spreading out is just not in the routine habit of J. virginiana.

So, with the above in mind. I doubt your juniper is J. virginiana. It could be any of a dozen different species, as there are many European and Chinese junipers that are common in the landscape nursery trade. The good news is all the European and Chinese species are better for bonsai than J. virginiana.

My guess would be x Pfitzer type, perhaps 'Blaauw', it could also be J. sabina, it could also be J. chinensis which could include 'Shimpaku' Foliage is not needle type, so it is unlikely to be J. communis. But I could be wrong. I've never seen shade grown J. communis.

It may take considerable time, and some "grown in full sun foliage" to work out the identity of the tree.
 

Rivka

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Spreading out is just not in the routine habit of J. virginiana.
Thank you for this, I would agree, whatever this is, it seems perfectly happy to wind around itself for decades. Hopefully, time will tell, till then, I will just enjoy the project. its foliage is really nice, I'm almost sad to think that it is likely to change a good bit when in the stronger sun, though that same sun will probably be better for the plant overall.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Blaauw is a variety of chinensis, but not a hybrid as far as I know. It's a very compact growing juniper, both in the shade as well as in the sun. It's also a pretty rare cultivar in the US. After the juvenile stage, it rarely produces needle foliage.
Sabina have a tendency to have very bright green, almost yellow spring growth. They rarely, if at all, have any blue hues.
J. communis is a strictly needle type.

The only US junipers I know that give me a blue vibe are scopulorum. Scopulorum has a particular smell, very juniper like but mixed with some old cat urine. It's closer to minty - but in a bad way - than most junipers I have handled. Media/pfizer and chinensis don't have that sharp pungent odor. But.. The scopulorum I have has tighter needle foliage. So my best guess if you can rule out the smell, would be a pfizer cultivar; a sabina x chinensis hybrid. The 'tam no blight' cultivar can turn a bit blue-ish. It's a cultivar I think has been in the US since the 1980's or so.

A picture of the bark on the trunk could help a tiny bit. Removing some old bark strips to expose the true trunk color can also be helpful.
 

Rivka

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A picture of the bark on the trunk could help a tiny bit. Removing some old bark strips to expose the true trunk color can also be helpful.
ill go do some more cleanup work on it today, ill get a batter look at the trunk and report back
 

Vance Wood

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I think it is a Pfitzereana a Chinese Juniper used in landscapes a lot years ago but not so much today.
 

Rivka

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Well anyone who may have been thinking it was a Juniperus sabina 'Tamariscifolia' you most likely get a gold star.
Today while digging it out further I found its extremely old brittle plant tag, tucked inside decades upon decades of plant duff. The Nursery called it a Tam Juniper.
 

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Vance Wood

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That's some good news. When exposed to sun, they can get pretty tight foliage.

On the subject of the video: I love Walter Pall but over the last several years his videos are more a lot of talk and almost no work.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Wires_Guy_wires ,
I know 'Blaauw' was a cultivar developed in EU, but at least in my area, it was apparently imported and propagated in the USA. Around Chicago, it is a fairly common juniper for landscape plantings, planted between 1960 and 1980. I believe Synsyvelt Nursery had been propagating it in the Chicago area. They apparently imported it, and were selling it openly, so either they were paying rights if required or they felt it was not trademark or patent protected. In some pages 'Blaauw' is listed as a hybrid, in some references it is listed as a Shimpaku. Colin Lewis worked on one with me back a number of years ago, he did think it was a Shimpaku and spoke rather highly of its quality. As sometimes happens, trees worked on the wrong time of year in a workshop, often don't survive. Alas, I no longer have the 'Blaauw'.
 

Rivka

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On the subject of the video: I love Walter Pall but over the last several years his videos are more a lot of talk and almost no work.
yeah i was going to say, he’s a crack up thanks for the link ‘Guy, i fell down a huge wonderful rabbit hole from that one.
 

Rivka

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Side note, the link i have in post #12 is from our Oregon State University Extension Office, time and time again on many subjects I have found it an amazing plant resource.
it has a pretty impressive list of Junipers and includes pictures, growth habit, often interesting history and more
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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@Wires_Guy_wires ,
I know 'Blaauw' was a cultivar developed in EU, but at least in my area, it was apparently imported and propagated in the USA. Around Chicago, it is a fairly common juniper for landscape plantings, planted between 1960 and 1980. I believe Synsyvelt Nursery had been propagating it in the Chicago area. They apparently imported it, and were selling it openly, so either they were paying rights if required or they felt it was not trademark or patent protected. In some pages 'Blaauw' is listed as a hybrid, in some references it is listed as a Shimpaku. Colin Lewis worked on one with me back a number of years ago, he did think it was a Shimpaku and spoke rather highly of its quality. As sometimes happens, trees worked on the wrong time of year in a workshop, often don't survive. Alas, I no longer have the 'Blaauw'.
Ah awesome, I didn't know that were in the US since so long ago.
I think blaauw is a shimpaku chinensis, it's very similar to kishu. But I haven't been able to find any documentation of it being a hybrid.

We have more or less an ancient 'breeders right' in our country as opposed to trademarks or patents. It is as old as the tulip boom, originating around the 1630's. One could get those rights by mailing themself in threefold a document and leaving it datestamped and unopened. One for the government, one for the 'patent' office and one for them self. Because of the date stamp and the post office originally being state owned, a person is able to prove that he came up with the idea first and that the government was involved. So they get to keep the rights for a certain amount of time. In some cases, this system still applies. Especially in creative fields of work like painting and writing.
Monsanto tried to convince us to go for a patented system, but we didn't budge. So they just bought up all vegetable breeders that were in their way and let them keep their original name or let them drown by cutting their budgets to zero. We have four or five vegetable companies that are Monsanto/Bayer owned but still operate under the original name. As a former insider, I know some of those scars haven't healed yet. We're vicious traders at heart and our history isn't very nice, but the plant community in our country used to be very family-like and courteous.

Don't pin me down on it, but as a breeder the Dutch law protects you as creative genius for 25 years by default; nobody can sell your cultivar without paying you a fee. After those 25 years you can have that patent extended once, and once only. After that, the cultivar is common good and there is no way to keep it to yourself anymore. Somewhere in the 1990's, the system was updated to give more polished definitions about what a cultivar is, and of course, the Dutch being the Dutch: someone figured they could ask a bucketload of money for registration and for a rejection of said registration.
If memory serves me right, a true patent would last for at least 40 years.
US law doesn't recognize this system (also thanks to Monsanto, I don't know if it's in the Monsanto protection act as well) so as soon as plant cultivars protected under breeders rights hit US soil, the Dutch company should either file a patent in the US, or accept that it's a free for all. As far as I know there hasn't been a single case in favor of the Dutch.
 
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