Help/juniper

limna

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I'm kind of new to bonsai and I'm looking for advice for what I should do with this blue star juniper...
IMG_0575.JPGIMG_0574.JPG
 

sorce

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Welcome to Crazy!

Best start singing the Version of that Disney song that rightfully applied before someone else does!

... .. ....!

Sorce
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Just to add some background to my first comment: this tree is young. You're going to find better specimens for less than 20 dollars in nurseries.
I have a couple of whips like these, but junipers are slow growers and it might take a couple years before this tiny one is worth more than the wire you intend to use on it.
In the ground it'll go big faster. That's kind of what I would aim for right now. It'll give you more satisfaction than working on it now and setting yourself up for a possible flawed tree in the future.
 

limna

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Just to add some background to my first comment: this tree is young. You're going to find better specimens for less than 20 dollars in nurseries.
I have a couple of whips like these, but junipers are slow growers and it might take a couple years before this tiny one is worth more than the wire you intend to use on it.
In the ground it'll go big faster. That's kind of what I would aim for right now. It'll give you more satisfaction than working on it now and setting yourself up for a possible flawed tree in the future.
You do know this thing is about 10 in. tall already, right? Won't it grow with time even with pruning?
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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You do know this thing is about 10 in. tall already, right? Won't it grow with time even with pruning?
And when you wire the trunk properly it's going to be 7 inches tall or less.
If you cut it back to the first branch, it's even smaller. There are a lot of options possible, but you asked for advice.

I'd go for a trunk size proportional to the tree when it has at least secondary or tertiary branching. That means you either cut it down and start from scratch, or you get it growing and go for a larger tree.

Every tree grows with time, I'm thinking you should spend your time on something else while this one grows. Don't get me wrong, I love starting from scratch.. But I accept the fact that some of my from scratch trees will probably take 10+ years to develop and will look like crap in the meantime. If you're up for that, go for it. If you're not up for that, that's fine too.
 

limna

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And when you wire the trunk properly it's going to be 7 inches tall or less.
If you cut it back to the first branch, it's even smaller. There are a lot of options possible, but you asked for advice.

I'd go for a trunk size proportional to the tree when it has at least secondary or tertiary branching. That means you either cut it down and start from scratch, or you get it growing and go for a larger tree.

Every tree grows with time, I'm thinking you should spend your time on something else while this one grows. Don't get me wrong, I love starting from scratch.. But I accept the fact that some of my from scratch trees will probably take 10+ years to develop and will look like crap in the meantime. If you're up for that, go for it. If you're not up for that, that's fine too.
Couldn't I just make a sacrificial branch instead of chopping it down?
 

Orion_metalhead

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Sacrificial branch = a chop...

If you ask what you should do with it, youre going to get different responses based on different people's ideas of how they treat their own trees.

What is your goal for the tree? What do you hope it to look like in 5 or 10 yrs? Do you have any inspirational images of other junipers?

As it is, I would leave to grow out in container or ground at moment until you know what you want to do with it.
 

bonsaichile

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Couldn't I just make a sacrificial branch instead of chopping it down?
It would still take years to thicken, which is the main problem in your tree. And in any case, a sacrificial branch must grow out (I am talking about feet here) in order to thicken the trunk. That would also take years. For a 10' trunk, you need at least a 1.5' or 2' base. That takes time. There is no way around that
 

limna

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Sacrificial branch = a chop...

If you ask what you should do with it, youre going to get different responses based on different people's ideas of how they treat their own trees.

What is your goal for the tree? What do you hope it to look like in 5 or 10 yrs? Do you have any inspirational images of other junipers?

As it is, I would leave to grow out in container or ground at moment until you know what you want to do with it.
I'm pretty sure he meant like a chop as in making it a stump.. I'm talking about growing it out maybe to two times the height at the top then cutting that off or having a sacrificial near the bottom. I'm hoping to have something in this type of style where the foliage kind of grows in in pufts as in this for example. Not very concerned about creating any movement in the trunk either.
56cc69b8-11c5-4b8f-9d7b-5614f74ab734.jpg
 

limna

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It would still take years to thicken, which is the main problem in your tree. And in any case, a sacrificial branch must grow out (I am talking about feet here) in order to thicken the trunk. That would also take years. For a 10' trunk, you need at least a 1.5' or 2' base. That takes time. There is no way around that
I'm not objecting to it taking time, I just don't want to leave EVERYTHING just as a shrub until it thickens up.
 

HorseloverFat

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I would think that the problem with wanting to remove more foliar growth AND thicken the trunk would be mainly that your tree uses that foliage for overall expansion... However, I could be wrong, I am fairly new to this.
 

limna

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I would think that the problem with wanting to remove more foliar growth AND thicken the trunk would be mainly that your tree uses that foliage for overall expansion... However, I could be wrong, I am fairly new to this.
I'm thinking that if you have multiple sacrificials and enough time, you could be it done
 

HorseloverFat

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Absolutely seems like it could be done. It will be a massive timelength investment, but long-term projects/aspirations can be wonderful. Truly rewarding... Probably have to fill the spots in that timeline with other trees and projects too... so you have a variety of material to learn and grow WITH.
 

Orion_metalhead

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If you know anything about junipers, you would know that you cant chop them like deciduous. @Wires_Guy_wires would never recommend that. No one with experience would recommend that.

If you want a forest like that, you would want to 1) get more trees. 2) let your tree grow. 3) wire side shoots in position now 4) learn the growth habits of juniper and realize that you must leave foliage on the branches for them to remain alive 5) wait 10yrs with meticulous pruning.
 

limna

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If you know anything about junipers, you would know that you cant chop them like deciduous. @Wires_Guy_wires would never recommend that. No one with experience would recommend that.

If you want a forest like that, you would want to 1) get more trees. 2) let your tree grow. 3) wire side shoots in position now 4) learn the growth habits of juniper and realize that you must leave foliage on the branches for them to remain alive 5) wait 10yrs with meticulous pruning.
Are side shoots a term for branches to the side when viewed from the front?
 

bonsaichile

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A juniper will not heal the chop. That's why you jin branches instead of cutting them. And in any case, I think you are trying to do it backwards. You need to work your tree from the bottom up: First, establisb a good nebari? then grow the trunk, and then work on the branches. Only at the end you will refine the pads. Junipers are slow growers. In a pot it will take you years to get it double its height. Multiple sacrificials would only make it loom bad, even if you get to refine it: You will either have too many scars or ill-placed jins. You can of course select branches now for a basic structure (dont wire until the fall). But remember, as Walter Pall says, you need to tolerate ugliness now if you want future beauty.
 

limna

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A juniper will not heal the chop. That's why you jin branches instead of cutting them. And in any case, I think you are trying to do it backwards. You need to work your tree from the bottom up: First, establisb a good nebari? then grow the trunk, and then work on the branches. Only at the end you will refine the pads. Junipers are slow growers. In a pot it will take you years to get it double its height. Multiple sacrificials would only make it loom bad, even if you get to refine it: You will either have too many scars or ill-placed jins. You can of course select branches now for a basic structure (dont wire until the fall). But remember, as Walter Pall says, you need to tolerate ugliness now if you want future beauty.
I see. Any stipulations on where the jin ought to be placed? At the top such as in this?
John_Naka's_Goshin_-_National_Bonsai_&_Penjing_Museum_-_Washington,_D.C._-_Stierch_-_B.jpg Thank you.
 

Orion_metalhead

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In that John Naka forest, the deadwood is at top to give a certain effect: ancient juniper trees with candelabra apexes.

Others would leave the deadwood lower, like the branches in your original picture.

Youre tree is nowhere near either point yet. I would focus on learning how to care for the tree first. I agree on working bottom up: roots first, get a nice radial base, then start slowly determining important branches and key features.

Heres a juniper i have thats in a similar state as yours. I dont even care about the top much right now. I want to get the root structure sorted first:

20200314_170344.jpg

Radial roots being trained first:
20200314_170754.jpg

After this tree has a good handle on its roots, ill begin picking specific branches which I will incorporate as deadwood branches and live branches. Ill allow the branches to be dead branches to grow out and thicken, so that when I jinn them, they will look in scale with the tree. The live branches I allow to grow, pruning yearly to reign in growth and produce tight pads which over the long term will remain tight to the tree to give the look i want. If i were to wait until later on down the road to control this growth, i wont be able to reliably chase the foliage back on the trunk.

I dont think you know enough about juniper maintenance and growth patterns to be worrying about styling ("what should I do") with this tree. I would focus on the roots and thinking long term goals for this specific tree, and research the methods others have used to attain similar aesthetic.
 

limna

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In that John Naka forest, the deadwood is at top to give a certain effect: ancient juniper trees with candelabra apexes.

Others would leave the deadwood lower, like the branches in your original picture.

Youre tree is nowhere near either point yet. I would focus on learning how to care for the tree first. I agree on working bottom up: roots first, get a nice radial base, then start slowly determining important branches and key features.

Heres a juniper i have thats in a similar state as yours. I dont even care about the top much right now. I want to get the root structure sorted first:

View attachment 293008

Radial roots being trained first:
View attachment 293007

After this tree has a good handle on its roots, ill begin picking specific branches which I will incorporate as deadwood branches and live branches. Ill allow the branches to be dead branches to grow out and thicken, so that when I jinn them, they will look in scale with the tree. The live branches I allow to grow, pruning yearly to reign in growth and produce tight pads which over the long term will remain tight to the tree to give the look i want. If i were to wait until later on down the road to control this growth, i wont be able to reliably chase the foliage back on the trunk.

I dont think you know enough about juniper maintenance and growth patterns to be worrying about styling ("what should I do") with this tree. I would focus on the roots and thinking long term goals for this specific tree, and research the methods others have used to attain similar aesthetic.
I have been enlightened. I shall revise my plan accordingly. But to clarify, you're saying that nebari develop on their own over time, correct? And that I should plant the premature specimen in the ground until the trunk/nebari has developed enough? or do I use a root pick to expose the nebari as it develops? And wouldn't the jin created at the apex of the tree be much too tall if we were to not cut it?
 
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