Help me identify this JWPs' cultivar

Khaiba

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Hey everyone

I just received a Pinus parviflora bonsai I bought from an online shop but am unsure about its' cultivar. It was listed as regular Pinus parviflora so I asked the seller specifically about its cultivar before buying because I already owned a JWP Glauca and wanted the original variety with greener foliage to eventually graft them onto JBP rootstock for propagation.
He told me that they were obviously(!) the regular species, as Glauca, Miyajima, etc look different. Now, after receiving it I have to say I am a bit disappointed and skeptical because the foliage looks awfully similar to
my JWP Glauca.
I'm hoping you guys can help me identify its cultivar since I am not that experienced with the JWP and its varieties.
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Greetings
Khai
 

Adair M

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It’s not always possible to identify particular cultivars. There are many similar ones.

if your tree is a seedling, and not a graft, it will not be a particular cultivar. (Very few pJWP are grown from cuttings, and I can tell by the foliage your tree is not one of those.)
 

Bonsai Nut

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Both trees are grafted. I think it is more important to ask what rootstock was used - JWP or JBP. Because of the strength of JBP rootstock, many JWP are grafted on JBP rootstock, and (in my personal opinion) the JWP takes on some of the characteristics of JBP - particularly thicker needles and needle curvature.
 

Khaiba

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I know that most Japanese White Pines are grafted, I don't really mind that. I was hoping however to get a more vibrant green color (as normal JWP tend to have). Guess I'll have to keep searching for a different 'mother' tree.
Maybe it helps to know that the needles on my new JWP have silvery pale streaks on the inside and pale green on the outside.
I believe it is either Negishi or Glauca.
Maybe your glauca is not?
Could be... I bought it at a local nursery labelled as Glauca.
 
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Bonsai Nut

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Maybe it helps to know that the needles on my new JWP have silvery pale streaks on the inside and pale green on the outside.
I believe it is either Negishi or Glauca.
I think you may be chasing down a rabbit hole. Just because your JWP looks like a specific cultivar, doesn't mean that it is a specific cultivar. Unless you have the provenance, it is simply a JWP, Pinus parviflora.

Here are two short-needle cultivars. They look similar in some ways, and very different in others. However without the provenance, a nursery would only be able to sell these as generic JWP.

jwp.jpg
 

Brian Van Fleet

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If the label is gone, so is the provenance. Miyajima is a fairly good guess, and is a regional type of white pine grafted on black pine roots.
 

roberthu

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Both trees are grafted. I think it is more important to ask what rootstock was used - JWP or JBP. Because of the strength of JBP rootstock, many JWP are grafted on JBP rootstock, and (in my personal opinion) the JWP takes on some of the characteristics of JBP - particularly thicker needles and needle curvature.
Side question though: why do JWP always get grafted? Is it possible to keep JWP on its own root stock? I just bought a 3-year seedling to experiment out. I heard JWP roots are finicky and always wither away in the long run but don't know exactly why.
 

Adair M

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Both trees are grafted. I think it is more important to ask what rootstock was used - JWP or JBP. Because of the strength of JBP rootstock, many JWP are grafted on JBP rootstock, and (in my personal opinion) the JWP takes on some of the characteristics of JBP - particularly thicker needles and needle curvature.
That’s a figment of your imagination.

In Japan, JBP is most often used as under stock for JWP grafts. In the US, Strobus is used as is Scots.
 

Adair M

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Side question though: why do JWP always get grafted? Is it possible to keep JWP on its own root stock? I just bought a 3-year seedling to experiment out. I heard JWP roots are finicky and always wither away in the long run but don't know exactly why.
There are several reasons JWP are usually grafted.

One: JWP seedlings vary, and usually don’t have very good needle quAlity. They might twist, or be long, or not form nice tight tufts, or have poor color. So, the “cultivars” we see were sports that were found on a tree that had particularly nice needles. Grafting is how they can be propagated. Seeds grown from them do not pass on their characteristics. JWP generally don’t propagate via cuttings or layers well. So, grafting is the best option.

Two: JBP is often used as root stock because the trunks will form flaky bark at a relatively young age. And they can be sold at a relatively young age because the rough bark makes them look older. JWP take 20 to 25 years for their bark to START to become flaky. Whereas JBP can have mature looking bark as early as 5 years or so.

The idea that JWP having weak roots is Incorrect. It’s all about commercial production, and developing a salable product in the fastest way possible.

I happen to own several JWP on their own roots. I have not found that their roots are any less strong than Those if any other pine.
 

Bonsai Nut

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That’s a figment of your imagination.

In Japan, JBP is most often used as under stock for JWP grafts. In the US, Strobus is used as is Scots.
I don't think it is :) But regardless, hopefully people aren't going to argue that when grafted on JBP, it is difficult if not impossible to hide the graft scar. In fact, some JWP I saw in SoCal they didn't even bother trying - they just grafted JWP branches on a JBP trunk.
 

Adair M

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I don't think it is :) But regardless, hopefully people aren't going to argue that when grafted on JBP, it is difficult if not impossible to hide the graft scar. In fact, some JWP I saw in SoCal they didn't even bother trying - they just grafted JWP branches on a JBP trunk.
Yeah, that’s common. I have two JWP that have Lodgepole trunks with JWP foliage. One was grafted by Boon 20 years ago, the other grafted by Jimmy Imidori (sp?) 25 years ago. On both these trees, the JWP branches are beginning to develop flaky bark. The Lodgepole bark is extremely rough and flaky. So, there is still a large difference between the two, but soon (another 3 or 4 years), it will be hard to tell.
 

roberthu

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There are several reasons JWP are usually grafted.

One: JWP seedlings vary, and usually don’t have very good needle quAlity. They might twist, or be long, or not form nice tight tufts, or have poor color. So, the “cultivars” we see were sports that were found on a tree that had particularly nice needles. Grafting is how they can be propagated. Seeds grown from them do not pass on their characteristics. JWP generally don’t propagate via cuttings or layers well. So, grafting is the best option.

Two: JBP is often used as root stock because the trunks will form flaky bark at a relatively young age. And they can be sold at a relatively young age because the rough bark makes them look older. JWP take 20 to 25 years for their bark to START to become flaky. Whereas JBP can have mature looking bark as early as 5 years or so.

The idea that JWP having weak roots is Incorrect. It’s all about commercial production, and developing a salable product in the fastest way possible.

I happen to own several JWP on their own roots. I have not found that their roots are any less strong than Those if any other pine.
Great! Thank you for these information. Curious where you are in NE Georgia. I am in Buford and I have a few JWP from seeds growing too and I wonder how you are keeping your JWP healthy and strong in regards to soil mix, watering and fertilizing, etc.
 

Adair M

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I’m about 50 miles north of you in the foothills of the mountains. I use Boon Mix. I water every day, usually twice day in Summer. I fertilize August thru January.
 

roberthu

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I’m about 50 miles north of you in the foothills of the mountains. I use Boon Mix. I water every day, usually twice day in Summer. I fertilize August thru January.
Thank you! I bought 3 JWP seedlings from Kaedebonsai this spring and planted them in pure turface. One of them is going pretty strong, one of them is doing Okay with new growth and new buds set. The last one is showing yellow/burnt needles. Not sure why as they are planted in the same medium and watered, fertilized the same. I am thinking about planting them in the ground this fall and leave them there for a few years.
 

Adair M

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They’re seedlings. There’s genetic differences between the seedlings.

I don’t care for turface. I know Matt uses it to start his seedlings, but I think it’s too water retentive, which may be why it’s yellow.
 
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