Help! Overlapping roots on a pine

[Emanon]

Hi all! A neighbor gifted me a nursery grown landscape pine tree that he had no use for. The roots are overlapping and, in general, are just a mass of mess. I was hoping to get advice as to whether (1) there is hope, and (2) what my next move should be.

I wasn't planning on taking it out of its nursery pot this year since I just cut back its trunk. Is it OK for me to just sever the roots that are overlapping now, while it is still in nursery pot?

The obvious root to cut (the one highest up) seems to be fusing and I was wondering if I did nothing, how bad would it look in the future (i.e. would it be in any way interesting or just ugly)? This is my first pine. Should I treat it like a maple, for example -- aiming for level radial roots, none overlapping?

Thank you so much for any advice -- I've never done this before!

P.S.- This is a Torrey pine. I know it is a bad species for bonsai. So, assuming this is true, what next?

 

[0soyoung]

Roots wrapping around the trunk = trouble (eventually).

The one shown prominently in the second photo could be cut now without disturbing any other roots -- just cut it at the point where it enters the soil, then peel it back to where it joins the trunk and cut it off there. That eliminates your #1 potential problem. In a few years, you can remove the dead remnants that are underground when you repot the tree.

All the carbohydrates come down the tree in the inner bark. Even though it is in phloem tubes that run more or less along the length of the stem, the flow is much like Karo syrup oozing down the tree (were you to pour some on). A root ringing the trunk shuts off this flow = none of the other roots get fed and will die sooner or later. In the case of your prominent girdling root, the roots below it would eventually die were you to leave it in place. I think this would take several seasons to happen. On the other hand, the longer you leave it, the longer it will be to recover from the ill-effects of it.

 

[Shibui]

Roots will eventually fuse and allow sap to flow to roots below provided the fusion occurs before the circling root cuts off supply to the roots underneath.
I think there is still opportunity to remove that one shown. initially that will leave an unsightly hollow but that seems to soon fill out.
You don't need to completely remove the root straight away if that is difficult. Just cutting through and removing a small section to stop sap flow will kill the root and it can be cut back properly whenever you do the next proper repot and root prune.
This is just the first of the wrapping roots. There may well be more below. Only a full repot will tell you what you have.
No pics of the top. If it has been grown for landscape the branches and trunk may already be too long for use as bonsai. On review I see there are indeed some low branches with plenty of new shoots close to the trunk so even if the rest of the tree is not usable it will be possible to chop and regrow something.

 

[penumbra]

Roots wrapping around the trunk = trouble (eventually).

This is absolutely the case, especially with pines. Thousands of landscape trees that seem to do well for many years will suddenly up and die because of girdling roots that formed in a nursery pot when they were small. It is a major cause of sudden tree death.
Some trees do overcome this to a degree by root fusion but these are more likely to be maples, elms or other trees with vigorous roots.

 

[Adair M]

STOP!!!

This is a Torrey Pine, right? If so, it will never be suitable for bonsai. These trees have needles a foot long! Plant this in your landscape if you want, but don’t waste your time trying to make a bonsai out of it.

Try doing a google search for “Torrey Pine bonsai”, and look at the images. You wont find any. Search on virtually any other pine and you’ll finds dozens if not hundreds of images. Hmm... I wonder why?

 

[penumbra]

STOP!!!

This is a Torrey Pine, right? If so, it will never be suitable for bonsai. These trees have needles a foot long! Plant this in your landscape if you want, but don’t waste your time trying to make a bonsai out of it.

Try doing a google search for “Torrey Pine bonsai”, and look at the images. You wont find any. Search on virtually any other pine and you’ll finds dozens if not hundreds of images. Hmm... I wonder why?

I am not familiar with this pine and it might make a nice container plant. But if Adair says its not suitable for bonsai, listen to him.

 

[Adair M]

I am not familiar with this pine and it might make a nice container plant. But if Adair says its not suitable for bonsai, listen to him.

Torrey Pines grow in a very small range on the coast near San Diego. There is a famous Golf Course nearby. They are protected and it’s illegal to collect them.

Sure, you could keep it as a “container plant”, but with the huge needles, it will always just look like a fuzzy bush. This species has the longest needles of all the pines. Long and pendulous.

 

[penumbra]

Torrey Pines grow in a very small range on the coast near San Diego. There is a famous Golf Course nearby. They are protected and it’s illegal to collect them.

Sure, you could keep it as a “container plant”, but with the huge needles, it will always just look like a fuzzy bush. This species has the longest needles of all the pines. Long and pendulous.

Sounds to my way of thinking as a fabulous container plant.

 

[Emanon]

The one shown prominently in the second photo could be cut now without disturbing any other roots -- just cut it at the point where it enters the soil, then peel it back to where it joins the trunk and cut it off there. That eliminates your #1 potential problem. In a few years, you can remove the dead remnants that are underground when you repot the tree.

Thanks so much for the advice! I ended up cutting that root that you both you and @Shibui mentioned. It appears that part of that root though had already begun to fuse to the other. I couldn't just pry it off with my fingers or with rudimentary tools (screwdriver or ice pick). Now that the root no longer exists I think that if I come back later it might be easier to pry off this segment without cutting into the other root? And then, as you suggested, I'll wait and get to the rest of the overlapping roots when I repot.

 

[Emanon]

STOP!!!

This is a Torrey Pine, right? If so, it will never be suitable for bonsai.

Haha I know Adair! I really hesitated naming the type of pine because I figured/knew that I’d get replies such as this lol! I finally added the species name as a postscript hoping that it was kind of hidden but still satisfied the (informal) requirements of the site to provide such information. In the same postscript, I also tried (inarticulately though ) to explain that I was fully aware that it is undesirable bonsai material but that I planned on going ahead with it any way so… assuming this… what about its overlapping roots. If nothing else I figured I'd be learning how to handle the situation in general — with any standard landscape nursery grown pines that I might possibly come into possession of in the future. I have little to no experience with pines and I have the tree so I think it will be fun to use it to learn about the genus going forward.

Plus... I live across the street from the Torrey Pines State Reserve. There is literally my front yard, a two lane road, then the reserve. So it is a tree that is as native as it gets for me and one, after years of staring at, I have come to appreciate the beauty of. Because the tree’s uniqueness reminds me of home, I’d be satisfied if I could just get a stick-in-a-pot with a largely bare branch or two, and a clump of the really long needles on the end.

I attached some pictures of a bonsai’d Torrey Pine that I found a couple of towns over. I also attached the logo (I guess you’d call it) of my town. You can see the tree’s ugliness/unusualness is synonymous with my neighborhood. I just want to capture that aesthetic (bare branch, long needles in groupings of 5, etc.) in a bonsai pot.

 

[0soyoung]

Now that the root no longer exists I think that if I come back later it might be easier to pry off this segment without cutting into the other root? And then, as you suggested, I'll wait and get to the rest of the overlapping roots when I repot.

Exactly.

Now that the overlap doesn't exist, the cambium of the underneath root can grow and will tend toward pushing off what is left of the 'overlapper' = just be patient and it will eventually easily come off.

 

[Adair M]

Haha I know Adair! I really hesitated naming the type of pine because I figured/knew that I’d get replies such as this lol! I finally added the species name as a postscript hoping that it was kind of hidden but still satisfied the (informal) requirements of the site to provide such information. In the same postscript, I also tried (inarticulately though ) to explain that I was fully aware that it is undesirable bonsai material but that I planned on going ahead with it any way so… assuming this… what about its overlapping roots. If nothing else I figured I'd be learning how to handle the situation in general — with any standard landscape nursery grown pines that I might possibly come into possession of in the future. I have little to no experience with pines and I have the tree so I think it will be fun to use it to learn about the genus going forward.

Plus... I live across the street from the Torrey Pines State Reserve. There is literally my front yard, a two lane road, then the reserve. So it is a tree that is as native as it gets for me and one, after years of staring at, I have come to appreciate the beauty of. Because the tree’s uniqueness reminds me of home, I’d be satisfied if I could just get a stick-in-a-pot with a largely bare branch or two, and a clump of the really long needles on the end.

I attached some pictures of a bonsai’d Torrey Pine that I found a couple of towns over. I also attached the logo (I guess you’d call it) of my town. You can see the tree’s ugliness/unusualness is synonymous with my neighborhood. I just want to capture that aesthetic (bare branch, long needles in groupings of 5, etc.) in a bonsai pot.

I have to admit that the tree in your photo looks far better than I would have expected. I’ve been to Torrey Pines State Reserve once, many years ago. My memory is of trees with long pendulous needles about a foot long. Literally looking like trees Dr Seuss would have in his books! LOL!!!

Good luck with your project!