Help style my olive bonsais.

[maroun.c]

3-4 years back I started with few bonsais, moslty olives and struggled with soil issues and sourcing out good soil material as well as watering.and few other issues. Luckily I have found some good soil that has been working for an least 2 years for few olives (pumice and some clay balls) and looks I'll be getting some Acadama as well soon...
So basically I have a few olives that has made it fine fro the last 18-24 months at least in that soil.
So it is time to start experimenting with those in planning a style to grow them in. I have been on travel for most of last year years so except for watering and the very occasional fertilizer they didn't get any care. I will start fertilizing a bit more frequent to boost their growth a bit.
These 3 trees are far from good material I agree but that's the i could find here and would love to try to get something half decent out of them.
will post pics of all three trees from 4 sides and appreciate yuor time in helpign with a plan for each.

Tree 1
Current front


Rt side


Back


Lt


Size wise this is the most promising of my trees but the 2 huge branches got me confused on what to do on it. Also the barck of the trunk is still two white and looks too New to wonder how long g it'll take to look older.

Tree 2

Front.


Rt side


Back


Lt


Tree 3
Front


Rt

 

[maroun.c]

Back


Lt



Thanks for any input or Suggestions

 

[Cadillactaste]

I would go into Google images and look for inspiration. Remember we are wanting to create an apex. I recommended this book.

 

[BrianBay9]

Great book. In all your trees you have a nice base to work from, but you have trunks that are long and cylindrical. Ideally you'd like to have taper in the trunks. I'd think about picking a side branch low on each trunk to develop into a new leader, and cutting back to it. You can lose 75% or more of each of those straight, taperless trunks.

 

[Silentrunning]

I would go into Google images and look for inspiration. Remember we are wanting to create an apex. I recommended this book.
View attachment 244893

This book is the best I have found for bonsai design. It is easily understandable and full of great information.

 

[Silentrunning]

I would go into Google images and look for inspiration. Remember we are wanting to create an apex. I recommended this book.
View attachment 244893

This book is the best I have found for bonsai design. It is easily understandable and full of great information.

 

[maroun.c]

I would go into Google images and look for inspiration. Remember we are wanting to create an apex. I recommended this book.
View attachment 244893

Thanks Will check it out.

 

[Adair M]

Great book. In all your trees you have a nice base to work from, but you have trunks that are long and cylindrical. Ideally you'd like to have taper in the trunks. I'd think about picking a side branch low on each trunk to develop into a new leader, and cutting back to it. You can lose 75% or more of each of those straight, taperless trunks.

Great advice!

All the trees need to be about 1/3 their current height. You can cut all the branches off, entirely! Flush to the trunk. Seal the cuts. The trunk will pop new growth all over. Choose the shots that are in good places, remove the rest. When the shoots are about 4 inches long, wire with aluminum wire. Fertilize. After 6 weeks, remove wire and cut back. Pull off any leaves growing on the tops and bottoms of The branches.

I tried to post some pictures of my trees, but the system is having trouble. I’ll post them when it’s resolved.

 

[Adair M]

Great book. In all your trees you have a nice base to work from, but you have trunks that are long and cylindrical. Ideally you'd like to have taper in the trunks. I'd think about picking a side branch low on each trunk to develop into a new leader, and cutting back to it. You can lose 75% or more of each of those straight, taperless trunks.

Great advice!

All the trees need to be about 1/3 their current height. You can cut all the branches off, entirely! Flush to the trunk. Seal the cuts. The trunk will pop new growth all over. Choose the shots that are in good places, remove the rest. When the shoots are about 4 inches long, wire with aluminum wire. Fertilize. After 6 weeks, remove wire and cut back. Pull off any leaves growing on the tops and bottoms of The branches.

I tried to post some pictures of my trees, but the system is having trouble. I’ll post them when it’s resolved.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the replies. Here's where I'm considering cutting to. Was wondering how such a cut would heal and if tree would make it with no leaves at all. From Adair reply looks like its possible. I'll cut and treat with paste I guess. wanted to confirm cut line but for some reason not able to upload the files. will upload when this is fixed.

 

[Dan92119]

For the first tree look at Bobby lanes trees. He doesn’t do olives as far as I know. He has lots of bulky trees that I find inspiring.

 

[Adair M]

Great advice!

All the trees need to be about 1/3 their current height. You can cut all the branches off, entirely! Flush to the trunk. Seal the cuts. The trunk will pop new growth all over. Choose the shots that are in good places, remove the rest. When the shoots are about 4 inches long, wire with aluminum wire. Fertilize. After 6 weeks, remove wire and cut back. Pull off any leaves growing on the tops and bottoms of The branches.

I tried to post some pictures of my trees, but the system is having trouble. I’ll post them when it’s resolved.

 

[maroun.c]

Amazing trees thanks for sharing.

Here's where I'm considering the cuts
or maybe Take out the branches completely at well as that previously cut branch.

I can also cut higher and clean out those two nodes that are affecting tapper.

thanks for all ur input

 

[Shibui]

You can cut olives as low as you want and they will sprout new shoots but I think it is a waste of material to cut so low as to remove any taper that exists. I would consider removing one of the trunks at a fork on most of these trees.

That will improve taper and simplify the flows of the trunks. The question then becomes - Will it still look like an old olive?
When cutting olives also consider leaving some of the redundant trunk for jin. Deadwood suits olives.

I would think there should be some great olives around Lebanon for inspiration. Not sure how much impact the years of troubles have had on the environment or ability to travel but it is always worthwhile observing real trees to try to distil some of the general habits and characteristics that define each species so that those features can be used in our bonsai.
Otherwise search terms like 'ancient olives' for pictures of trees that can help inspire.

 

[maroun.c]

You can cut olives as low as you want and they will sprout new shoots but I think it is a waste of material to cut so low as to remove any taper that exists. I would consider removing one of the trunks at a fork on most of these trees.
View attachment 244983
That will improve taper and simplify the flows of the trunks. The question then becomes - Will it still look like an old olive?
When cutting olives also consider leaving some of the redundant trunk for jin. Deadwood suits olives.

I would think there should be some great olives around Lebanon for inspiration. Not sure how much impact the years of troubles have had on the environment or ability to travel but it is always worthwhile observing real trees to try to distil some of the general habits and characteristics that define each species so that those features can be use
in our bonsai.
Otherwise search terms like 'ancient olives' for pictures of trees that can help inspire.

Thanks for your input. I might as well try that for the tree you marked as well as few other smaller ones I have, my remaining concern at this stage would be the two ugly nodes at the top of the trunk before the bifurcation should I cut or carve those out as if I go with a longer trunk I don't think I should have any front branches at that level to hide them (not sure if branches will sprout from those nodes anyway)
Indeed many great olives in Lebanon all around, most of those I've observed always have a trunk at about 30-50 percent of the tree height and then branches bifurcating starting then and going upwards. definitely nothing like Adair trees that is for sure but again Adair trees are still an inspiration. would make sense to try to go for few trees from each still as well.

 

[Shibui]

Agree that the lumps are a bit ugly. I believe these are remnants of the original lignotuber that forms at ground level when the seed germinates. If left to grow, surface roots eventually grow there but this one was probably dug and lifted up a bit early.
Several ways to deal with that:
Incorporate one or both into the dead wood when you jin the larger trunk.
Plant this tree deeper and layer to get roots growing from the level of those lumps so roots are coming from the widest possible part of the trunk.
Look for another front so those are hidden.
Carve out one or both to give an imitation hollow trunk.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for ur input. Can u please elaborate on jin the trunk?

 

[Adair M]

When looking at old olives, remember they have been pruned to maximize fruit production.

 

[Shibui]

Jin is the Japanese term for dead branches and trunk that are left to tell the story of tough times and survival. Rather than just cutting a redundant branch right off we strip the bark off to kill it then cut back to the desired length. The dead wood can be worked with carving tools or fibres stripped with pliers to make it look like it has weathered and maybe partly rotted - as natural as possible which does take a little practice.
Shari is the term for dead areas on the trunk of the tree. In the clumsy virt I have painted the dead areas white as old dead wood bleached by the sun. Note the dead part (jin) on the left trunk continues down the trunk some way (shari) to include one or both of those lumps. This should disguise one or both. To reinforce the theme of struggle and survival I have also jinned the top of the remaining right trunk above the branch I left to grow the new canopy. you might even connect the 2 dead jins with more shari to tell the story of massive damage at one time but the tree has survived and grown back from one branch on the remaining live trunk.

Shari is useful to disguise thickened areas on trunks. When the wood is white our eyes take less notice so the reverse taper, while still there, does not sand out to the viewers. If the reverse taper problem still persists the thickened areas can be carved and hollowed as if they have rotted away naturally - problem solved.
On this tree, other branches might be formed from any new shoots which will surely grow when an olive is cut back severely, such as the yellow area I've added lower on the right side.
Note that I've also tilted the tree a little to bring the new apex above the base and balance the new design a bit.

All these ideas will need to be modified depending on the actual shape of the tree and what grows well after pruning. Apex may very well be larger than drawn, more branches added as they sprout or in different locations, etc. Lots of possibilities and no one answer is correct.

 

[Shibui]

When looking at old olives, remember they have been pruned to maximize fruit production.

This is a very good point. Especially in areas where olives are used extensively there may be few or no trees that have been allowed to grow naturally. I was hoping that readers would understand the differences between cultivated trees and more natural shapes.
Near here we see feral olives that have been allowed to grow free for over 100 years (still babies compared to some old trees in Greece, Italy and Spain) as we have not had a culture of olive use until quite recently.
To see olives shaped by nature you would probably need to get away from cultivated areas and look in semi wild or wild mountain areas if such places still exist around the Mediterranean. Even though they have been managed, some of the really old olives have still developed very impressive shape, form and dead wood.