Help understanding the high cost of chinese elm?

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I buy, grow, & collect a lot of trees these days, nearing the tens of thousands mark. Over this past few months this year I have been looking around those "mallsai" stores like bonsaioutlet.com and have noticed that nearly everyone is asking a premium for Chinese elm. Having grown them, hundreds of them, from seed and cuttings, also having grown hundreds of other species such as maples, junipers, katsura, yew's, olive's etc. i don't quite get where this premium price comes from, most online stores are charging nearly $35 more for a "large" chinese elm vs. a shimpaku, JM, or other harder to grow tree. Chinese elms are some of the easiest to propagate in mass quantity from my experience.

Can anyone explain this to me in ELI5 terms because this really doesn't make sense to me. I just cant see where the premium price is coming from.
 

milehigh_7

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When you buy a bigger piece of stock you are also paying for time. When there is any training there is more time involved. Not to mention a certain amount of skill is involved in developing seedlings into pre-bonsai. You are talking cutting taproots, a few years of initial pruning and so forth. These things are valuable. Some folks prefer to get a headstart on the initial work.

I mean honestly propagating can be a pain in the backside. If I can pay $35 and get a 1-2" elm with some movement in the trunk, that is totally worth the investment when you think about how much time is worth by the hour. The poor schmucks that put 10 total hours into a tree that they only sell for $35 are really screwing themselves. It is totally not worth the time to be in that market.
 
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Thanks for the replies guys, but I'm still not seeing it. Every tree of age needs root work, time styling, ect. ect. what makes the Chinese elm so much more valuable than the others? I've propagated, grown, trimmed, styled, most types of trees over the years, and my experience has always been easier with the Chinese elm than others like shimpaku's or bloodgood maples.

Is it just a supply and demand thing? people have a preference for Chinese elms vs. others? Just something the market has gotten away with for years for no reason? they are certainly easier to make than a lot of other species that I have worked with there has to be some reason behind it.
 

rockm

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Stop looking at bonsaioutlet...Better places to buy better quality...Places like that buy cheap and sell high to an audience that usually doesn't know any better. The money to be made in bonsai is in "entry level" stock, thin, mostly crappy Chinese elms (imported under different unrestricted species names like "Chinese zelkova"...They sell at a premium and are usually killed by beginners,who then, if not to discouraged, return to buy another...
 
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Stop looking at bonsaioutlet...Better places to buy better quality...Places like that buy cheap and sell high to an audience that usually doesn't know any better. The money to be made in bonsai is in "entry level" stock, thin, mostly crappy Chinese elms (imported under different unrestricted species names like "Chinese zelkova"...They sell at a premium and are usually killed by beginners,who then, if not to discouraged, return to buy another...

I'm not "looking" just comparing. I have 0 interest in buying mallsai. I just made an observation, and am wondering the reason behind it. I have over 400 Chinese elm from this years seedlings to a 20 year old specimen. I just want to understand why mallsai shops charge so much more for them when they are easier to produce and take less time. it seems the direct opposite of what makes sense and I am curious.
 

Dav4

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Again...it's because people are buying them at that price point. Don't ask me WHY people are spending that kind of money on them but they are...maybe they like the s shaped trunk and bark, along with small, shiny green leaves, which makes their new "bonsai" look slightly more like a real tree then a similarly sized juniper Don't forget, the people making these purchases DON"T KNOW that Chinese elms should be a dime a dozen for all the reasons you've mentioned... Caveat emptor.
 

music~maker

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I just want to understand why mallsai shops charge so much more for them when they are easier to produce and take less time.

I think you just answered your own question. They're marketing the higher margin trees as a premium plant to make more money. And it's obviously working, or else the lower demand would be reflected in their pricing. They're largely selling to an uninformed market that has been taught that this is what bonsai looks like.

I don't really get why people buy budweiser either, but people sure do buy an awful lot of it.
 

milehigh_7

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I think you just answered your own question. They're marketing the higher margin trees as a premium plant to make more money. And it's obviously working, or else the lower demand would be reflected in their pricing. They're largely selling to an uninformed market that has been taught that this is what bonsai looks like.

I don't really get why people buy budweiser either, but people sure do buy an awful lot of it.


You are right there, buttwiper sux
 

sorce

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Bro....

People are stupid.

Of course...

We are all a little quicker than the average human.....

Everyone else is stupid....

Or.....

Those sellers are helping me fill the Newbie Grad Burn Pile with a bunch of shit trees....

Which is only good for us!

Fire....fire.....

Sorce
 
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Thank you all, i figured it was just marketing and artificial markup but i didn't want to be so ignorant as to assume i was right without some input. In other news, I don't feel so bad for starting another 200 Chinese elm sprouts last month.

Thanks for the input and reassurance :)
 

AZbonsai

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I have the same question about olive trees where I come from...they seem more expensive here in the nursery...just supply and demand I guess.
 

milehigh_7

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Thank you all, i figured it was just marketing and artificial markup but i didn't want to be so ignorant as to assume i was right without some input. In other news, I don't feel so bad for starting another 200 Chinese elm sprouts last month.

Thanks for the input and reassurance :)


Let's just take your own example. So you have several hundred elm seedlings. To live, are going to require the normal stuff: water, fert, pest control so on. To become bonsai, these are going to require root and top pruning at least yearly. When are you going to sell them 2-3...5 years? If you figure 10 minutes a day, you are talking about 60 hours of work per year not counting pruning.

Suddenly your cheap little trees are getting more expensive.
 

leatherback

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When are you going to sell them 2-3...5 years? If you figure 10 minutes a day, you are talking about 60 hours of work per year not counting pruning.
thissgoes for any species. One would expect a species that is easy to reproduce to be cheaper, as the effort in growing the plant itself is lower with elm than say acer?
 
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When are you going to sell them 2-3...5 years?

Never, or probably never unless it's to a close friend or college and even then only 1 or 2. We have 20 acres we're trying to turn into a giant bonsai garden. So we will need thousands upon thousands of trees to get started. we have acquired hundreds of specimens and already styled bonsai but are also propagating a lot of our own for future refinement.
 

milehigh_7

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Never, or probably never unless it's to a close friend or college and even then only 1 or 2. We have 20 acres we're trying to turn into a giant bonsai garden. So we will need thousands upon thousands of trees to get started. we have acquired hundreds of specimens and already styled bonsai but are also propagating a lot of our own for future refinement.


Well now that's a cool project!
 

milehigh_7

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thissgoes for any species. One would expect a species that is easy to reproduce to be cheaper, as the effort in growing the plant itself is lower with elm than say acer?

I can't help it. Since I was a little boy I look at the world as Cost of Goods Sold and Return on Investment. It is just who I am. One would think I would have more money...
 
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Well now that's a cool project!

I thought so too. A good way to spend retirement, and also to invest in my daughters future. Being 3 now, imagine the number of impressive trees she will have in 25-30 years when she inherits it. Especially the trees that are already 50-100 years old we acquired with another 25-30 years on them.
 

leatherback

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Cool projects but..
Being 3 now, imagine the number of impressive trees she will have in 25-30 years when she inherits it.
I just wonder .. How are you going to keep thousands of bonsai in shape so that in 25 years they are actually still bonsai, and not overgrown shrubs..
 
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