Help with huge shishigashira.

[Maloghurst]

I collected a huge shishigashira today. It was headed for the compost tomorrow so I went for it.
The pic probably does not do justice to the size. Also I’m not 100% on cultivar because I haven’t seen the leaves yet. But the internodes look like shishi. The rootball in the pic is about 26x40” across. The trunk is about 8” across. The nebari is more like 20”. The tree was about 15” tall. I cut everything back to much lower branching and left as much rootball as I could manage.
The soil was very crumbling so by the time I got it into a pot it was mostly bareroot. There are still some fine roots but not enough to make me confident of survival. I secured the tree in a huge nursery pot with Maloghurst bonsai soil ?.
I’m not very optimistic as the buds have just broken and not the best time for this and the rootball was as large as I could get without a small crane.

My questions
1. could I get air layers from this as I expect it to fully leaf out even if it’s dead in the long run. Could there be enough energy in the tree to air layer? I really do not expect it to make it two years.
2. For best chance of survival should I take anymore of the branching off? As stated I took probably 80% off already beacause the tree was Huge.
3. I don’t see any buds below what appears to be the graft about 40” up the trunk. But I could just do a hard chop about 30” up and hope for the best?
4.. Do shishigashira root well from cuttings because I have a ton.
Thank you!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
As I have not taken any cuttings of this cultivar I don’t have direct experience. Although I believe from others here this roots quite easily.
My initial thoughts about this huge tree is that the rootstock part of this is very strong and you do have a large amount of feeder roots. So large box and your favourite bonsai soil and you should be “good to go” after a year or two. Also I wonder whether you could to chop to 12-15 inches above graft and as you might have too much foliage versus root quantity.
Someone more experienced in this huge project can add their 2 cents and I might be wrong so I will learn more too ?.
Charles

 

[Paulpash]

My questions
1. could I get air layers from this as I expect it to fully leaf out even if it’s dead in the long run. Could there be enough energy in the tree to air layer? I really do not expect it to make it two years.

You're putting the cart before the horse. If it is on the verge of death then layering it is the best way to kill it. Leave all the foliage on to power root growth. Focus on getting it healthy - so this means a moisture retentive but free draining medium, away from wind and too much heat. I have had good success using fresh sphagnum moss around the roots to revive a maple root system and then around this the mix I described above. Chopping fresh sphagnum moss up and covering the soil surface also helps to increase moisture and local humidity. Ensure the tree is securely guy wired and cannot move in the pot. If there is a risk of it falling over then anchor it. Maples are one of the better trees when it comes to root recovery - just ensure it is well watered and the aftercare is appropriate.
2. For best chance of survival should I take anymore of the branching off? As stated I took probably 80% off already beacause the tree was Huge.
IMO leave it as it is - the trunk stores some carbs too - it may need these reserves as it begins to recover.
3. I don’t see any buds below what appears to be the graft about 40” up the trunk. But I could just do a hard chop about 30” up and hope for the best?
See above - leave well alone now. Thinking about additional chops / layers etc is not appropriate now. It needs to be left alone til you see long extension growth. There is an obvious clump but this is further down the road.
4.. Do shishigashira root well from cuttings because I have a ton.
Yes they do root. The hardest challenge (at least for me in the UK) is keeping them alive over Winter.

 

[Dav4]

Shishis readily air layer.... when healthy. Applying an air layer to a recently dug tree with minimal rootage is likely to fail. Plant this thing in a pot full of good soil, then baby it back to health this year... just feed, water and sun- no more pruning. If it does well, you can air layer to you heart's content next year.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Plant this in the ground and let it recover. No more cutting. Then next year you can perform air-layers on what’s alive.

Looks like a high graft(?) so anything below it will be a common JM. Maybe once you get your layers complete and severed in 2020, you can chop the trunk down to 8-10” in 2021 and see if you can get a fat trunk going on top of the decent root spread.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Plant this in the ground and let it recover. No more cutting. Then next year you can perform air-layers on what’s alive.

Absolutely the best advice.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Absolutely the best advice.

I will offer nothing less.?

 

[Maloghurst]

Thanks everyone, I did think about putting in ground. But don’t have the space. So as stated it’s in a huge, I don’t know, 100 gallon nursery can?
So I’ll just stick with plan and let it struggle for life.
Work with it in a couple years if it lives. Try to root the cuttings.

 

[rodeolthr]

This is an excellent time to transplant maples in Seattle. With the forecast of mid/high 50s and plenty of rain, this should do fine in a large nursery pot. I have moved 12' trees just as they are leafing, and provided that we have our standard cool/rainy spring, they seem to reestablish without issue.

 

[JacobL'etoile]

The problem your going to have is the leaves transpiring more water than the roots you have being able to take up. It will look like leaves coming out, looking good and then drying out. You CANNOT water your way out of that. No matter how you water each root can only take up so much water. The only way is to reduce transpiration. The easiest way to deal with it is to remove half the leaf surface area so that the existing roots can keep the leaves hydrated. I don't know if half is correct, it is what I have done with reasonable results given my circumstances. Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

 

[Gary McCarthy]

The problem your going to have is the leaves transpiring more water than the roots you have being able to take up. It will look like leaves coming out, looking good and then drying out. You CANNOT water your way out of that. No matter how you water each root can only take up so much water. The only way is to reduce transpiration. The easiest way to deal with it is to remove half the leaf surface area so that the existing roots can keep the leaves hydrated. I don't know if half is correct, it is what I have done with reasonable results given my circumstances. Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

I'm not sure all that's true. It's my understanding that it's the leaf mass on deciduous trees that helps gets the root mass re-established.

 

[Dav4]

Honestly, since it's potted (granted, it's a big ass pot!), keep it in full shade until the new leaves have hardened off. After that, gradually increase the amount of morning sun. Keep the soil evenly moist but not sodden, too.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I'm not sure all that's true. It's my understanding that it's the leaf mass on deciduous trees that helps gets the root mass re-established.

Where do leaves come from? To begin the process, last year's roots. The sugars stored in the roots start the process of inflating leaves to the point when the leaf can use the building blocks from the roots that are processed by the leaves into sugars, used to grow leaves, and the surplus cycled back to the roots to grow roots and send to other needy parts of the tree. The volume of sugars that can be produced in the process is limited by the weakest link. If the leaf buds present before pruning represented 100% of capacity, and the roots represented 100% capacity, then now you need to have fewer buds than the capacity of the roots to supply, to be safe, or you run the risk of inflating the canopy to some % less than mature enough to begin to re-supply the roots before they are exhausted and the cycle stops.

 

[Maloghurst]

This tree is doing well, some leaves turned a little crispy as you can see but it’s backbudding all over so I’d say that a good sign.

 

[Maloghurst]

This ones doing really well. I’m layering 4 branches off and I’ll update in may or June when they are done

 

[Davidlpf]

Nice find, good luck with the arilayers

"One man's trash is another man's treasure"

keep on reporting!!

 

[Dzhokar]

Really nice. Glad it survived.

 

[CWTurner]

Wow, I thought that one was a goner. Nice work!
CW

 

[Maloghurst]

I found two buds on the root stock. Super excited! I did not expect the root stock to bud as it had been at least 20 years of not budding.

 

[0soyoung]

This happens, commonly IMHO, when the cultivar is weakly supplying auxin to the root stock. Sometimes it is a sign that the cultivar is dying. Clearly it isn't in this case. Just a lot of layers limiting auxin flow temporarily.