Help with pine ID and styling guidance

[Erimarp]

Hi everyone!
I got this pine from another bonsai enthusiast and it is semi trained he told me that it’s about 25 years old and that it was a white pine which I found out the it’s not. According to many hours of research I believe that it is a pinus nigra(Austrian pine) but without much experience I’m not sure. Can anyone here help me With a correct ID? The needles are about 4” long bundle in two and very sharp, the end of the candles are white and sticky. I also need help with styling ideas I know that there’s potential but being new to this hobby I don’t really have an eye to see what I should do with it.

 

[penumbra]

Could be an Austrian pine or a black pine but it really needs to gain its strength before you even think about styling it. It looks very weak. If it was healthier it would be easier to ID.

 

[Erimarp]

Could be an Austrian pine or a black pine but it really needs to gain its strength before you even think about styling it. It looks very weak. If it was healthier it would be easier to ID.

Aren’t black pine and Austrian pine the same?
what should I do to help it recover?

 

[HorseloverFat]

Aren’t black pine and Austrian pine the same?
what should I do to help it recover?

The “Haha” was NOT to be rude, at ALL!

Just laughing at the conversational “hijinks” created by common or regional names...

It’s tripped me up a bunch of times, myself.

Yes.. they are the same..(if that INDEED is the correct id) A pinus nigra is a pinus nigra is a pinus nigra.

Just like an Acer rubrum is an Acer rubrum (red maple) is an Acer rubrum (swamp maple) is an.. ect

@penumbra ‘s thoughts about, “taking a beat, establishing the trees health and improving vigor PRIOR to other concerns” effectively hits “the pinus right on the apex” (nail on the head... a stretch, I know.), in my opinion, at least.

Nice tree!

I’m interested to see what happens!

 

[HorseloverFat]

My knowledge of pine recovery is limited.. so I will say NOTHING of it.. as NOT to confuse you with what could most accurately be described as “best guesses”

A Pinus Person, or Person with Pinus knowledge should be along, shortly.

 

[penumbra]

Austrian pine and Black pine are not the same. Austrian pine is Pinus nigra and nigra does mean black but it is an Austrian pine, not a black pine. It is sometimes called Austrian Black pine but black pine is reserved for the Japanese black pine, Pinus thunbergii.
This is all common trade talk that has been muddied by the use of common names.

 

[penumbra]

y knowledge of pine recovery is limited..

Your saying you have Pinus envy.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Austrian pine and Black pine are not the same. Austrian pine is Pinus nigra and nigra does mean black but it is an Austrian pine, not a black pine. It is sometimes called Austrian Black pine but black pine is reserved for the Japanese black pine, Pinus thunbergii.
This is all common trade talk that has been muddied by the use of common names.

Gotcha! I’ve just heard the Pinus Nigra REFERRED to as both Austrian AND simply Black Pine.

And this seems EXACTLY what your referring to. Complicating verbiage for complication’s sake.

Well.. now I know, I shall take my newfound knowledge to the streets.. help the needy!

 

[HorseloverFat]

Your saying you have Pinus envy.

As hilarious as it is.. it’s TRUE! (With an I, of course )

Pines scare me.. I think it’s that I’ve never really “got my feel wet” with them, as I’m slightly intimidated by their passive-aggressive tendencies and rigid, unflinching “moral code” of care.

 

[sorce]

as I’m slightly intimidated by their passive-aggressive tendencies and rigid, unflinching “moral code” of care.

Most of what you read about pines is not true.

Rigidity is not for this kind of Pinus.

They have great difficulties that are easily overcome.

Sorce

 

[HorseloverFat]

Most of what you read about pines is not true.

Rigidity is not for this kind of Pinus.

They have great difficulties that are easily overcome.

Sorce

Thank you, this puts me more at ease..

 

[penumbra]

The first time I saw Pinus nigra being offered as black pine was on the internet from a Chinese seller. My first 40 years of working with plants in a nurseryman's capacity was before internet.

 

[HorseloverFat]

The first time I saw Pinus nigra being offered as black pine was on the internet from a Chinese seller. My first 40 years of working with plants in a nurseryman's capacity was before internet.

It’s like poor translation meets mass appeal demographic...

“Yeah.. Pinus Nigra.. black pine.... makes sense.”

So many cases of “none the wiser”

Thank you for this piece of information.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Most of what you read about pines is not true.

Rigidity is not for this kind of Pinus.

They have great difficulties that are easily overcome.

Sorce

I look FOR pines, when I am “out and about”.. but most of the pines here SEEM non-ideal... the austrian pine (hahaha) and Pinus Sylvestris being the “usual suspects” for success (it seems) (but for sylvestris, here, you gotta look for “escaped subjects”)... there’s the huge, beefy white pines... with huge beefy needles.

I’ll run into Pinus Banksiana (sp?) every once and a while.

 

[Shibui]

In Europe pinus nigra is simply black pine. In Japan P. thunbergii is black pine. Now that we have pines world wide there is need to differentiate between trees with the same common name so alternatives and additions are used. Here we know P. nigra as European black pine (it grows in countries other than Austria). P. thunbergii is known as Japanese black pine. It is only because JBP is most commonly used as bonsai that bonsai growers just use black pine as a common reference to P. thunbergii. In Europe where both species are used more extensively te term black pine would not be enough even in bonsai circles.
As always, common names vary from place to place and will always lead to confusion. No common name is correct all over. Use proper names as much as possible to avoid confusion.

Back to the original question, given that the candles are sticky I would tentatively say P. nigra. One of the key factors differentiating the 2 species is winter buds resinous in nigra while thungergii has silky buds, usually very white.

 

[Erimarp]

In Europe pinus nigra is simply black pine. In Japan P. thunbergii is black pine. Now that we have pines world wide there is need to differentiate between trees with the same common name so alternatives and additions are used. Here we know P. nigra as European black pine (it grows in countries other than Austria). P. thunbergii is known as Japanese black pine. It is only because JBP is most commonly used as bonsai that bonsai growers just use black pine as a common reference to P. thunbergii. In Europe where both species are used more extensively te term black pine would not be enough even in bonsai circles.
As always, common names vary from place to place and will always lead to confusion. No common name is correct all over. Use proper names as much as possible to avoid confusion.

Back to the original question, given that the candles are sticky I would tentatively say P. nigra. One of the key factors differentiating the 2 species is winter buds resinous in nigra while thungergii has silky buds, usually very white.

Thanks for the very helpful info. Any ideas on how to style this tree? Does it look sick to you? If so what can I do to improve it’s health?

 

[Shibui]

Your tree appears to be reasonably healthy. Plump buds, a good mass of recent new needles, no sign of disease that I can see.
Styling?
The biggest problem will be the long, bare parts of the branches. Pines do not produce buds easily on bare sections so you will need to work with them, cut then off back to smaller live shoots, graft new shoots or bend them radically to reduce the effective length.
The next problem will be the whorls of branches. Opposite branches interfere with viewers eyes travelling up the trunk. They also make the area round the fork thicken more than below so that spot will end up with reverse taper. It is usual to remove either branches or the main trunk so there's only Y forks in the tree. there's not going to be much left if you apply that to this tree.

Apart from general guidelines I find it incredibly difficult to style from 2D photos because I cannot properly see the nuances of depth and relative movement of the trunk and branches. I also don't have any gauge of size and length for this one.
What attracted you to it? What would you like to see it made into?

Literati is often suggested for trees like this with long, bare sections but good literati is very, very difficult to get right. One of the lower branches could be a possible cascade too but good cascade style is almost as difficult as literati.

 

[Woocash]

Well, Nigra does mean black.

 

[Erimarp]

Your tree appears to be reasonably healthy. Plump buds, a good mass of recent new needles, no sign of disease that I can see.
Styling?
The biggest problem will be the long, bare parts of the branches. Pines do not produce buds easily on bare sections so you will need to work with them, cut then off back to smaller live shoots, graft new shoots or bend them radically to reduce the effective length.
The next problem will be the whorls of branches. Opposite branches interfere with viewers eyes travelling up the trunk. They also make the area round the fork thicken more than below so that spot will end up with reverse taper. It is usual to remove either branches or the main trunk so there's only Y forks in the tree. there's not going to be much left if you apply that to this tree.

Apart from general guidelines I find it incredibly difficult to style from 2D photos because I cannot properly see the nuances of depth and relative movement of the trunk and branches. I also don't have any gauge of size and length for this one.
What attracted you to it? What would you like to see it made into?

Literati is often suggested for trees like this with long, bare sections but good literati is very, very difficult to get right. One of the lower branches could be a possible cascade too but good cascade style is almost as difficult as literati.

You have great points! What attack it me to it wast the old looking trunk and the trunk line going up without the two lower branches. I have seen the cascade possibility as well but when can I start cutting away? It’s grafting very difficult? I could just let it grow more while trying to promote more compact foliage if I was to do this what Should I do to Promote compact growth. The tree was growing against a fence so that’s why it’s so bare in the back. I would love to send you a video of the 360 view of the tree but I don’t think I can.
again thanks for your answer.

 

[Erimarp]

You have great points! What attack it me to it wast the old looking trunk and the trunk line going up without the two lower branches. I have seen the cascade possibility as well but when can I start cutting away? It’s grafting very difficult? I could just let it grow more while trying to promote more compact foliage if I was to do this what Should I do to Promote compact growth. The tree was growing against a fence so that’s why it’s so bare in the back. I would love to send you a video of the 360 view of the tree but I don’t think I can.
again thanks for your answer.