Help with Trident Maple

[Thesonoflars]

Got this tree from Brent Walston @ Evergreen.
I am thinking of trunk chopping next Spring just above the first branch and letting that be the new leader to create taper and then let it continue to grow. Is this a good idea? Any suggestions in preparing this tree to become a worthy bonsai.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Johnathan]

It depends on what you see in your overall vision for the tree. I prefer a thicker trunk on maples, so for me, Personally I'd just leave it alone for a few year and let the bottom of the tree thicken up.

Once the tree has thickened up a bit more then I would cut it back to where you want to cut it at. Just keep that first branch safe and it'll still be there in a few seasons and still be smaller than the trunk, so you'll still have that taper!

 

[Thesonoflars]

Thanks for that helpful advice!

 

[Warpig]

I will also add that if you do want it to thicken, the fastest way would be to, in the spring move it to a grow box or in the ground. Yes it wont be as nice for now but when its done it will be better then it would of been left in a bonsai pot.

 

[TN_Jim]

I think I agree with these folks above.
Here is a trident (apologies for night photo) that was in about 3” of soil in a one gallon container -About 4-5 weeks ago I put it in this 7-10 gallon nursery can (alternative to ground growing) with pinebark and perlite and it has tripled in size in that short amount of time and thrown a bunch of new growth. Would help if you put your location in your info.

 

[Shibui]

After 35 years of growing trident maples i disagree with the advice above. Leaving a single trunk to grow thick does give a thick trunk but after the inevitable trunk chop also leaves a stump bonsai with little taper a very large cut to heal up. Growing the new apex, branches and healing the large scar can then take another 5-10 years after the chop. Adding good trunk taper can take even longer.
I prefer to start with early trunk chops which gives me many new leaders. A number of thinner leaders adds up to the same thickening as a single large trunk but has a number of advantages - thickening is different along the trunk which usually gives far better trunk taper; smaller cuts usually heal far quicker than a single large one; Sensible pruning can give trunk movement that is rarely possible in single trunk growing trees.
If you are not particularly interested in really thick trunks and large scars in a short time, developing bonsai slower in pots can yield far better trees with character and less scarring. A number of my better trees have never been in large containers or in the grow beds.
The choice is yours but i would encourage you to go with the original plan - cut to that first branch and work with the buds that grow after.

 

[TN_Jim]

Thicker or not, wouldn’t the ideal tree be below that first branch?

 

[Thesonoflars]

Thank you! Like Jonathan says, everything depends on your vision for the tree.
I think I got the idea to chop early in the life of the tree from Nigel Saunders. He shows trees that have had 3 or 4 trunk chops in their life and turn out as interesting trees with lots of movement and taper in the trunks. Next question, somewhat debated I've noticed, is when to cut. Before bud break or after leaves harden off? Based on Brent Walston's advice (below), I should do this at bud break since my goal is to develop the next section of trunk.
What are your thoughts on this?
When to Make the Trunk Cuts
You should probably never perform this operation as the leaves are coming out, wait until the new leaves have hardened off, usually in a month or two. Before the leaves emerge, the roots are at maximum storage capacity. If you prune then, all that food is going to look for buds to expand, and the growth will be explosive, coarse, and with long internodes. This is exactly what you want if you are only looking to develop the next section of trunk, the portion between branch 1 and branch 2. This will give you the most rapid development. Identify the new leader quickly and protect it. If you are lucky it will be right at the top of the cut that you made.

 

[TN_Jim]

I still don’t see how the first branch is an ideal new leader?...especially if movement of any sort or working within some typical height/trunk width ratio is the goal.

If this were mine, the goal would be to get that ideal leader (2/3 of trunk below that first branch), and chop to that as soon as possible -then if you wanted the trunk to thicken, develop faster etc. could make that decision after the fact, or let develop slowly in present pot. As it stands now, the trunk up to that first branch is a telephone pole.

@Shibui, it seems that you are saying that scars on trunks will be less evident if allowed to heal slower (in bonsai pot) than the same scar/cut site if grown in ground, grow box, large nursery can...is that accurate? I get smaller chop site now rather than grow big and chop later (which I agree with), but does the wound itself heal better and with less visible presence if forced to heal slowly!?

 

[coh]

So what you do is dependent on what you want to achieve. Do you want a thicker trunked tree? If so, let it grow.

Do you want a smaller tree? If you're happy with the trunk size you could opt for a simple broom style, perhaps about this size:



The obvious problem with this is that the upper trunk is too thick and straight. So you'd probably want to chop it around the red line and then regrow a set of primary branches/subtrunks to create that broom style. I'm not sure if there are any nodes in that area where new buds could grow, though, so this might not work (or you might have to graft).

 

[Shibui]

@Shibui, it seems that you are saying that scars on trunks will be less evident if allowed to heal slower (in bonsai pot) than the same scar/cut site if grown in ground, grow box, large nursery can...is that accurate? I get smaller chop site now rather than grow big and chop later (which I agree with), but does the wound itself heal better and with less visible presence if forced to heal slowly!?

My point was that trees that are grown slower and pruned often don't have large scars to heal. I have not even thought about slow V fast healing. I have seen some chops that over callus and produce ugly healing or inverse taper but not sure if that's from fast growth or even whether it is related to time of year chop.

I still don’t see how the first branch is an ideal new leader?...especially if movement of any sort or working within some typical height/trunk width ratio is the goal.

If this were mine, the goal would be to get that ideal leader (2/3 of trunk below that first branch), and chop to that as soon as possible -then if you wanted the trunk to thicken, develop faster etc. could make that decision after the fact, or let develop slowly in present pot. As it stands now, the trunk up to that first branch is a telephone pole.

All depends on the ultimate development and size of this tree. I agree that to convert this tree as it is to instant bonsai the chop would be below the 1st branch to allow a new canopy to grow. This would produce a very small bonsai - really neat but very difficult to maintain so not really practical for beginners (and this is clearly a beginner tree and beginner questions)
Cutting above the 1st branch just starts to set the bones for a future maple bonsai. The change of angle provides a bend in the new trunk. Tilt the whole tree to the right so the initial trunk is not straight up and informal upright trunk starts to emerge. Chopping also gives taper where that branch is clearly thinner than the trunk below. New buds will almost certainly grow on the trunk near the chop site - one of those will become a first branch. What is now the 1st branch is then the trunk. Allow it to grow freely all year to thicken the trunk then repeat a similar chop above a higher side branch to get a similar change of direction and more taper.
This basic process is repeated year after year on both the trunk and branches to develop trees with interesting changes of direction, good ramification and better taper. It will take time. Anyone with thoughts of quick deciduous bonsai should find another hobby or have deep pockets to pay someone else for the years of development.

COH has given another good option for this tree for a relatively small but quick bonsai. Many people are quite happy to have relatively thin bonsai and that cut will give more instant bonsai to work with. Allow all shoots to grow 5-8 pairs of leaves then prune back to 1 or 2 pairs as often as possible to develop a well ramified canopy. Trunk will stay relatively thin for many years but the tree should develop a nice canopy in 3-4 years and would keep many newbies quite happy.

There is rarely a single correct option for any bonsai. There are many bonsai hiding in this (and most other young) tree(s). Some will be quick, some slower, some impressive, some not so much.

 

[TN_Jim]

My point was that trees that are grown slower and pruned often don't have large scars to heal. I have not even thought about slow V fast healing. I have seen some chops that over callus and produce ugly healing or inverse taper but not sure if that's from fast growth or even whether it is related to time of year chop.


All depends on the ultimate development and size of this tree. I agree that to convert this tree as it is to instant bonsai the chop would be below the 1st branch to allow a new canopy to grow. This would produce a very small bonsai - really neat but very difficult to maintain so not really practical for beginners (and this is clearly a beginner tree and beginner questions)
Cutting above the 1st branch just starts to set the bones for a future maple bonsai. The change of angle provides a bend in the new trunk. Tilt the whole tree to the right so the initial trunk is not straight up and informal upright trunk starts to emerge. Chopping also gives taper where that branch is clearly thinner than the trunk below. New buds will almost certainly grow on the trunk near the chop site - one of those will become a first branch. What is now the 1st branch is then the trunk. Allow it to grow freely all year to thicken the trunk then repeat a similar chop above a higher side branch to get a similar change of direction and more taper.
This basic process is repeated year after year on both the trunk and branches to develop trees with interesting changes of direction, good ramification and better taper. It will take time. Anyone with thoughts of quick deciduous bonsai should find another hobby or have deep pockets to pay someone else for the years of development.

COH has given another good option for this tree for a relatively small but quick bonsai. Many people are quite happy to have relatively thin bonsai and that cut will give more instant bonsai to work with. Allow all shoots to grow 5-8 pairs of leaves then prune back to 1 or 2 pairs as often as possible to develop a well ramified canopy. Trunk will stay relatively thin for many years but the tree should develop a nice canopy in 3-4 years and would keep many newbies quite happy.

There is rarely a single correct option for any bonsai. There are many bonsai hiding in this (and most other young) tree(s). Some will be quick, some slower, some impressive, some not so much.

Thank you for thoughts and experience. This seems to echo others I appreciate greatly for their knowledge and conveyance of such practice. Bjorn for example or folks here -scarless deciduous trunk should be revered and prioritized over the quick fat chop n’ dirty often associated with present western/American bonsai...

I have been putting more things into pots knowing others perhaps would not due to a lack of “development”, and thus far have not regretted any of those instances, even with the knowledge of how it will slow down the tree at hand. Thanks seriously for reminding that part of that slowing down can be to ones advantage beyond simply being in a pot now, which itself does sure have advantages in just how a tree is appreciated and able to be observed.

However, while I personally would prefer a naturally slender elegant trunk to some sumo triangle on a triangle, aren’t there advantages to growing things out in a larger vessel with intent, purpose, and attention to refinement in both quality and aesthetic? In other words, could you not have your cake and eat it too, then slow it down in the not so distant present? Do you aim to put a deciduous tree in a pot as soon as possible? Do you have trees in development not in bonsai pots?

It is common to see virtually any random practioner (professional) on say, bonsai empire for example, work on material not in a pot. That said “in an pot” would also be common as well (b empire etc..) as is the OP’s tree -especially regarding tree is close to the relative thickness as the rim of the pot, no slight on the material or vision ahead, I have one trident pictured above.

I guess the second thought I put forth is my trident (obviously much different than the circumstances of the op) that I put in a large nursery can has without really “thickening” in such little time, has had a lot of backbuding without any chop as of yet, or removal of upper biomass, that potentially if left will strengthen the tree and get lower branching (as is still happening) within one year without a single cut of leaf or branch. This is partly why I put it in a large pot and not the ground, for the new branch that will be the leader, not the trunk or existing branch on it, and it worked. I did this with this intention because two other Japanese maples I did the same with have thrown lower branches without a cut.

Regarding the op and myself because I’m new to it, I don’t think thread grafting is as daunting as it seemed to me at the beginning of this year and prior.

Mine will likely go into a pot sooner than maybe others would, or out of that huge nursery can and revised soil.

I am worried about scarring in fast development. What makes that lip get grotesque?

Thanks

 

[TN_Jim]

Thank you for thoughts and experience. This seems to echo others I appreciate greatly for their knowledge and conveyance of such practice. Bjorn for example or folks here -scarless deciduous trunk should be revered and prioritized over the quick fat chop n’ dirty often associated with present western/American bonsai...

I have been putting more things into pots knowing others perhaps would not due to a lack of “development”, and thus far have not regretted any of those instances, even with the knowledge of how it will slow down the tree at hand. Thanks seriously for reminding that part of that slowing down can be to ones advantage beyond simply being in a pot now, which itself does sure have advantages in just how a tree is appreciated and able to be observed.

However, while I personally would prefer a naturally slender elegant trunk to some sumo triangle on a triangle, aren’t there advantages to growing things out in a larger vessel with intent, purpose, and attention to refinement in both quality and aesthetic? In other words, could you not have your cake and eat it too, then slow it down in the not so distant present? Do you aim to put a deciduous tree in a pot as soon as possible? Do you have trees in development not in bonsai pots?

It is common to see virtually any random practioner (professional) on say, bonsai empire for example, work on material not in a pot. That said “in an pot” would also be common as well (b empire etc..) as is the OP’s tree -especially regarding tree is close to the relative thickness as the rim of the pot, no slight on the material or vision ahead, I have one trident pictured above.

I guess the second thought I put forth is my trident (obviously much different than the circumstances of the op) that I put in a large nursery can has without really “thickening” in such little time, has had a lot of backbuding without any chop as of yet, or removal of upper biomass, that potentially if left will strengthen the tree and get lower branching (as is still happening) within one year without a single cut of leaf or branch. This is partly why I put it in a large pot and not the ground, for the new branch that will be the leader, not the trunk or existing branch on it, and it worked. I did this with this intention because two other Japanese maples I did the same with have thrown lower branches without a cut.

Regarding the op and myself because I’m new to it, I don’t think thread grafting is as daunting as it seemed to me at the beginning of this year and prior.

Mine will likely go into a pot sooner than maybe others would, or out of that huge nursery can and revised soil.

I am worried about scarring in fast development. What makes that lip get grotesque?

Thanks

different maple planted at more of angle this year from 4’ pot to 12’...bunch of new to choose from early next year, no cuts here.

 

[Shibui]

However, while I personally would prefer a naturally slender elegant trunk to some sumo triangle on a triangle, aren’t there advantages to growing things out in a larger vessel with intent, purpose, and attention to refinement in both quality and aesthetic? In other words, could you not have your cake and eat it too, then slow it down in the not so distant present? Do you aim to put a deciduous tree in a pot as soon as possible? Do you have trees in development not in bonsai pots?

I certainly have trees in plastic training pots to develop. Most of my developing bonsai spend years in training pots, usually plastic but larger ones have been in polystyrene fruit boxes. I know many of you grow in Anderson Flats but we don't appear to have those over here. The extra space is valuable to get more strength and resilience so the trees grow more and faster but can still be controlled. Developing trees should still be worked. The trick is to recognise what and how often at different times in the development cycle. Letting them grow can be valuable, knowing when to intervene with wiring or pruning is important to get best results.
Slowing the growth can be important for developing branches and/or trunks with shorter internodes so that later ramification will be better. You can grow great looking branches with nice curves and maybe even good taper but without nodes sub branching can't grow where they should unless grafted on.
Many of my trees spend far longer in the training pots than strictly necessary but that's often just because the 'right' pot can be hard to find here.

 

[Smoke]

I would love to see some of the more finished tridents you guys have. Some of the advice seems interesting and would love to see how it was handled.

 

[Frojo]

I would love to see some of the more finished tridents you guys have. Some of the advice seems interesting and would love to see how it was handled.

Duh, try to search the forum yourself. Shibui has some very nice ones.

 

[TN_Jim]

I have one trident pictured above.

Here’s my only trident in the morning light rather than phone flash, and behind the curtains, that I put in big nursery can to get lower branches.




Here’s a bigger pic of the one (palmatum) that turned the light on to take this approach and it’s clones today from where I retrieved it from because like the trident I don’t have a before pic.


Here’s just a few of potential Acer that I take care of and try to make sure employees keep alive at work that have some potential -perhaps this seeing of healthy Japanese maples in nursery cans also (likely) inspired this approach to cause lower back buds without making a single cut and thereby not taking resources from tree(s)...bigger can is like ground growing but cheap effective soil mix (bark perlite) and water can be controlled.

The pretty strong hypothesis is that when roots are allowed to grow free and are healthy, growth should appear throughout the plant including around where you may want it -this is the opposite of cutting off and reverting auxin which the tree will have to work to replace and likely will inevitably end up at the apical branches anyway, not necessarily low.



One important factor I believe with this especially as seen with the palmatum planted at much more of a severe angle, is planting angle is likely a huge mechanism of results (two trees not exactly stats powerful) due to allowing direct sun straight to the lower trunk rather than filtered through the tree itself.

I’m going to keep experimenting with this with others/other species. I got the trident and this BC (photo) from John at Creekside Bonsai just outside of Nashville -healthy trees, good people. Prior to this the only other place I had ever seen a trident in tn was at Bjorns. I’m not sure John got them from Bjorn (think was from up north somewhere), I’m just saying that there aren’t a lot of tridents around here I’ve found till lately. That said, until this year I’ve never really sought a Japanese maple for whatever reason...price..not native or wild collectible..who knows, glad I have.
Thanks