Help with yamadori collecting. Advice needed

[Mihai]

Hello nuts. Need some advice about yamadori pine collection. Has anyone succesfully collected from super sandy/clay soil?
I found a drop dead gorgeous patch of pine trees. They are all over 60-70 years old with amazing mature bark and a lot of trunk movement. Stunted in growth. Problem is that they are located on the side of an artificial hill made as a side efect of a caolin mining operation. So basically the whole hill is super sandy clay and none of these trees have a rootball. They have super long finger-thick roots going of in all directions and no feeders close to the trunk?
Anyone have a clue as to how one might approach collecting something like this?

 

[PiñonJ]

Hello nuts. Need some advice about yamadori pine collection. Has anyone succesfully collected from super sandy/clay soil?
I found a drop dead gorgeous patch of pine trees. They are all over 60-70 years old with amazing mature bark and a lot of trunk movement. Stunted in growth. Problem is that they are located on the side of an artificial hill made as a side efect of a caolin mining operation. So basically the whole hill is super sandy clay and none of these trees have a rootball. They have super long finger-thick roots going of in all directions and no feeders close to the trunk?
Anyone have a clue as to how one might approach collecting something like this?

With nothing close to the trunk, chances of survival are probably close to zero. What species of pine? @M. Frary might have some tips.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

It can be done. But you need to spend 3 wish years doing it.

Basically. Wiggle the tree gently and see where it's roots are going off too. Cut one of them 6 inches from the trunk. Water. Fert. and then come back the following year (the cut root would send out feeder roots). Cut a second root. Water. Fert. And repeat a third year. Basically, you would need to build a root ball from scratch.

Still no guarantee it won't kill the tree but it can be done. But its a long process.

 

[M. Frary]

This.

It can be done. But you need to spend 3 wish years doing it.

Basically. Wiggle the tree gently and see where it's roots are going off too. Cut one of them 6 inches from the trunk. Water. Fert. and then come back the following year (the cut root would send out feeder roots). Cut a second root. Water. Fert. And repeat a third year. Basically, you would need to build a root ball from scratch.

Still no guarantee it won't kill the tree but it can be done. But its a long process.

 

[Mihai]

@PiñonJ , @Bavarian Raven , @M. Frary hello guys. Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds like a good plan. Given the quality of the material, it seems worth the hassle. Any suggestions on season? Also, would it help if I mixed some rooting hormone into the substrate next to the cut roots?

Thanks again.

 

[PiñonJ]

If the candles are not too far along, you can probably do the first operation now. I wouldn’t bother with rooting hormone. What species of pine are they? Keep us posted on your progress!

 

[Joe Dupre']

No experience with pines, but all of this sound good. A little judicious pruning might be in order every year also. Think about this. These trees are an extension of your bonsai garden. You would have to put in the three years attending to them if they were in a pot on your benches. This is just a somewhat inconvenient version of that.

 

[PiñonJ]

I wouldn’t do any pruning until you have a root system where you want it.

 

[PiñonJ]

I wouldn’t do any pruning until you have a root system where you want it.

In fact, no pruning at all until you have a strong root system, in a container, and you have all the back budding you want.

 

[headive24]

I have collected some pine trees that grow on the uphill side of roads cutout along mountains. These trees grow in the erosion soil that has piled on top of the rock, and it is always sandy. I was able to literally grab the trunk, and work the tree back and forth until i pulled it completely out, with the entire root structure intact. It is true that there wasn't a perfect root ball, but there were more than enough feeder roots at the end of these longer roots, and i simply bent them around the outside of the pot.

I noticed that alot of people will automatically discourage you from collecting, instead of giving you advice on how to do it. I do agree that we should use careful consideration and act responsibly when collecting, but don't let others convince you to not try things yourself because they failed at it. Who knows if they've even tried it themselves, or just got convinced not to try it and now they're passing on this "advice" to you. I've seen a friend collect a pine without wrapping the roots or covering them at all, and that tree is still alive today. Not recommended, but according to what i've read this should have been a death sentence; and yet it was not.

As far as how to approach it, I would say gently uncover one of these long roots that go in all directions you mentioned as best you can. then pry a tool or use your hand to get underneath it. If it is sand like experienced, you should be able to lift this root out. I recommend trying support the root from underneath, where there are branched smaller roots when you lift. Don't just grab the thick root and yank.

If this feels possible on the first root, then use the same method on the rest of the roots.

My only confusion is that you described it as "sandy clay" soil. Sand refers to larger particle size whereas clay means smaller particles. Clay soils are able to compact as the finer particles settle with little space in between.

The sandy soil I experienced was loose to where i could dig with my hands no problem. This is why the roots came out without ripping because they weren't squeezed into tightly packed clay soil.

Anyway, i think you'll be able to tell if extraction is possible without tearing roots, and if you don't feel comfortable then leave it behind. Or try the 3 year method mentioned above; or the 1-year method. But don't let people tell you whats not possible.

 

[Mihai]

@PiñonJ sorry! Forgot to mention species. They are pinus sylvestris and pinus nigra.
@headive24 about the soil... Agreed ). Just as confusing for me. As I've said, the hill's completely artificial. You get a few yards compact clay, a few yards sandy runoffs, a few yards grass over clay and a lot of 3-4 foot deep channels where water drains during rainy season, with pines hanging to the edges. All the pines I've collected so far were in circumstances just like you described. You could pretty much pull an untouched rootball out of rock pockets full of topsoil.
I will most certainly try with these as well. Both approaches probably. They are just too good to not at least try. If nothing works, I'll yell uncle and leave them be. Just wanted to see if anyone had any luck in similar conditions, and with what strategy.

 

[Nicholas Box]

I have collected some pine trees that grow on the uphill side of roads cutout along mountains. These trees grow in the erosion soil that has piled on top of the rock, and it is always sandy. I was able to literally grab the trunk, and work the tree back and forth until i pulled it completely out, with the entire root structure intact. It is true that there wasn't a perfect root ball, but there were more than enough feeder roots at the end of these longer roots, and i simply bent them around the outside of the pot.

I noticed that alot of people will automatically discourage you from collecting, instead of giving you advice on how to do it. I do agree that we should use careful consideration and act responsibly when collecting, but don't let others convince you to not try things yourself because they failed at it. Who knows if they've even tried it themselves, or just got convinced not to try it and now they're passing on this "advice" to you. I've seen a friend collect a pine without wrapping the roots or covering them at all, and that tree is still alive today. Not recommended, but according to what i've read this should have been a death sentence; and yet it was not.

As far as how to approach it, I would say gently uncover one of these long roots that go in all directions you mentioned as best you can. then pry a tool or use your hand to get underneath it. If it is sand like experienced, you should be able to lift this root out. I recommend trying support the root from underneath, where there are branched smaller roots when you lift. Don't just grab the thick root and yank.

If this feels possible on the first root, then use the same method on the rest of the roots.

My only confusion is that you described it as "sandy clay" soil. Sand refers to larger particle size whereas clay means smaller particles. Clay soils are able to compact as the finer particles settle with little space in between.

The sandy soil I experienced was loose to where i could dig with my hands no problem. This is why the roots came out without ripping because they weren't squeezed into tightly packed clay soil.

Anyway, i think you'll be able to tell if extraction is possible without tearing roots, and if you don't feel comfortable then leave it behind. Or try the 3 year method mentioned above; or the 1-year method. But don't let people tell you whats not possible.

Big difference between "impossible" and higher likelihood of success...no?

I think most of us would agree that collected trees can survive some wild situations that we intentionally or otherwise put them in.....but optimization certainly leads to more trees surviving collection.


@Mihai I have a much lower success rate in the type of soil you're describing, but by collecting it over the course of a few seasons I've been successful. Different species near me though.

Good luck!

 

[August44]

I can collect nice trees on side hills around me also, but have made it a point after loosing every one, to not collect them anymore. Long tap roots, no feeder roots so why kill them. You might get away with doing it on a small tree, but I don't want small trees at my age. Find a different spot on good flat ground and spend your time and efforts there. Even if they are in easy to dig soil, they will still have very long tap roots. The trouble is that the hill with loose soil just keeps sliding down and burying more of the tree's trunk and then that become part of the tap root. It just goes on and on and on......

 

[headive24]

I can collect nice trees on side hills around me also, but have made it a point after loosing every one, to not collect them anymore. Long tap roots, no feeder roots so why kill them. You might get away with doing it on a small tree, but I don't want small trees at my age. Find a different spot on good flat ground and spend your time and efforts there. Even if they are in easy to dig soil, they will still have very long tap roots. The trouble is that the hill with loose soil just keeps sliding down and burying more of the tree's trunk and then that become part of the tap root. It just goes on and on and on......

i wouldn't know where to begin on that first image where the pine is rooted deep into a crack in solid rock. And i can see what you mean about the sandy hillside leading to a long taproot. I guess that i was lucky in finding a roadside cutout where there was solid rock with sand eroding down the rockface. It created little "containers" where the tree had rooted into essentially a bowl of rock filled with sand. Roots had only so much space. Also, the sand was so loosely packed in there i think i could have probably grabbed the truck and pulled it out with all the roots intact. I was much more careful than that, but long story short if you can find an area like the one i just described; you should patrol it for trees