Hi - trunk thickening advice needed

[Minkston]

Hi folks,

I'm new here and new to bonsai.

I live in the UK and got interested when I was looking for plants to enhance the look of my Koi pond.

A few years ago I read an article about creating a bonsai tree in ten easy steps and I basically hacked up a perfectly good conifer I had in a small pot (it's still in shock). Since then I've been looking for other plants to refine my hacking skills

I've watched a fair few bonsai videos on YouTube and I'm keen to get a few trees on the go. Unfortunately I've not had much luck finding any mature stock that I can get stuck into right away. So this year I decided to get some small specimens that I can develop.

What I'm interested to know at the moment is about trunk thickening. I've seen conflicting information on the internet. Some people seem to be of the opinion that as soon as you stick a tree in bonsai pot\soil that the trunk is not going to thicken much more so it should be left in a deep pot or in the ground in regular nursery soil until the desired thickness is achieved. Then I also see people putting everything straight into bonsai soil with a view to developing the trunk and roots.

Can any of you veterans give me a steer on this? It's a slow hobby and I don't want to waste time - thanks!

At the moment I'm growing numerous acers, cotoneasters, pine and a few Japanese cherry trees...and the mutilated conifer

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Slower in a pot with more control.

Faster in the ground with less control.

With about 3 thousands ways between!

Sorce

 

[Haoleboy]

I grow everything in large containers to thicken trunks. It allows the roots to grow undisturbed for several years. If I had land, I would plant in the ground. Letting the tree grow undisturbed until desired thickness is the fastest way to obtain a thick trunk from a sapling.

 

[Victorim]

Welcome Minkston,

Not a Vet but.. If the goal is trunk thickening (quickly) then the roots must have room to run and thicken. Ground is generally best, but larger containers works nearly as well in most instances. A stick Acer in a small pot will take an age to thicken up.

Go easy on the pines, look into inorganics / bonsai substrate, and to save time get trunks your happy with to make trees But as @PaulH said in another thread (think it was you.. not checking now, need sleep) its good to have trees in different stages if you really want to get into bonsai.

 

[Paradox]

Sorce is correct in that container growing is considerably slower but with more control than in the ground. If container growing, put it in a container that it has room to grow in, but dont make it huge, upgrade containers as the tree grows.

With either method, feed it and let it grow.
Dont keep pruning the tree incessently or it will never thicken
Grow a sacrifice branch/trunk and develop your tree from other branches.

There are threads that show people doing this all over this site, have a look around, youll find them.

 

[Victorim]

Oh and read http://www.bonsai4me.co.uk/ Excellent resource.

 

[Johnathan]

Just to clarify for @Minkston ... What do you all consider to be "large containers" .... For example how much room between the end of the roots and the container walls?

 

[Paradox]

Also I would not put them in a deep pot, a wide shallow pot is better so that the tree grows roots horizontally. This will make it much easier to get the tree into the eventual bonsai pot

 

[63pmp]

I've allways potted into anything that was big enough. Plastic garbage cans are good. Never really worried about vertical roots. I always prune the root ball flat after a few years of fattening growth. I then train the roots and nebari when I start to develop branches and ramification. A good sharp saw will thin out any lumpy bits underneath.

 

[Minkston]

Wow - Thanks for all the replies!

The general consensus seems to be in line with what I was thinking then.

I have several acers (4-6 years old) in large pots probably upwards of 30-40 litres each (I struggle to move them). I had one acer in a smaller 10 litre pot and it never seemed to get any bigger although always seemed healthy and developed a nice'ish trunk. I stuck it in a bonsai training pot this year but with regular soil to keep developing the trunk further. I guess it's more down to pot size than the soil? That being the case I'll repot it again next year with a bonsai mix and fertilize it. The reason the acers are all in pots is because I like to display them around my Koi pond, which is all paved. I'll try and put a few pics up.

The rest of my plants have gone in the ground for a few years or so. I read somewhere about putting a tile in the ground. 6 inches or so below the plant to help develop horizontal roots. I have done this with a couple of plants to see how it works out.

I also have a load of cuttings I made this summer. As someone mentioned the intention is to have lots of trees at various stages of development. I just need to find something I can play with now while the rest are developing.

Next spring I'll look a bit further a field.

 

[63pmp]

You need to put the plant right on the tile. 6 inch gap wont stop vertical root growth. Though I'm not convinced a tile is all that necessary, just pruning off the vertical roots at next repot works fine. My experience is that fast trunk growth seems to encourage a few thick roots to develop rather than a nice overall nebari. YMMV so tiles are certainly worth trying as things may be different in your yard.

 

[Minkston]

You need to put the plant right on the tile. 6 inch gap wont stop vertical root growth. Though I'm not convinced a tile is all that necessary, just pruning off the vertical roots at next repot works fine. My experience is that fast trunk growth seems to encourage a few thick roots to develop rather than a nice overall nebari. YMMV so tiles are certainly worth trying as things may be different in your yard.

Thanks for the tip - I put that badly. I meant 6 inches below the surface (ish)... other than a of cm soil the plants have gone right on of the tiles. I've done some with tiles and some without so should hopefully get an idea of whether it's work pursuing in future.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Also, for thickening you have to let growth run. Thickening is driven by increased vascular demand from the foliage. No increased demand = no thickening. If you keep a tree pruned, it doesn't matter how big a pot you put it in, trunk thickening will slow to a crawl if not stop altogether.

 

[BigBen]

Also, for thickening you have to let growth run. Thickening is driven by increased vascular demand from the foliage. No increased demand = no thickening. If you keep a tree pruned, it doesn't matter how big a pot you put it in, trunk thickening will slow to a crawl if not stop altogether.

THANK YOU for that post BN!
It's only 7:50AM here, and you've ALREADY taught me something!
Thanks Again,
BigBen

 

[Eric Group]

Hi folks,

I'm new here and new to bonsai.

I live in the UK and got interested when I was looking for plants to enhance the look of my Koi pond.

A few years ago I read an article about creating a bonsai tree in ten easy steps and I basically hacked up a perfectly good conifer I had in a small pot (it's still in shock). Since then I've been looking for other plants to refine my hacking skills

I've watched a fair few bonsai videos on YouTube and I'm keen to get a few trees on the go. Unfortunately I've not had much luck finding any mature stock that I can get stuck into right away. So this year I decided to get some small specimens that I can develop.

What I'm interested to know at the moment is about trunk thickening. I've seen conflicting information on the internet. Some people seem to be of the opinion that as soon as you stick a tree in bonsai pot\soil that the trunk is not going to thicken much more so it should be left in a deep pot or in the ground in regular nursery soil until the desired thickness is achieved. Then I also see people putting everything straight into bonsai soil with a view to developing the trunk and roots.

Can any of you veterans give me a steer on this? It's a slow hobby and I don't want to waste time - thanks!

At the moment I'm growing numerous acers, cotoneasters, pine and a few Japanese cherry trees...and the mutilated conifer

Growing out: in the ground or in a large pot, regular nursery soil/ dirt/ compost/ peat and perlite... high in nutrients, high in water and nutrient retention.

Once to the desired thickness, and with the branches at least well on their way-you can start moving to Bonsai soil and Bonsai pots.

The rush to inorganic soils and smaller pots causes the death of so many trees for people new to Bonsai.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

THANK YOU for that post BN!

This is the concept behind "sacrificial branches".

If you let your entire tree grow wild in order to thicken the trunk, you can often ruin some of your primary branching because it becomes too thick for use in your final design. So the trick is to keep your primary branching pruned and restrained, while letting another branch (which isn't in the right place for final design use) to grow wild, and then remove it after a couple of years. The trick is to remove it BEFORE it gets so thick that it would leave a giant trunk scar.

With practice, you can grow a series of branches from the same tree - letting them grow long and then removing them - while still maintaining your basic design. I have an 8" shohin right now that I have a 4' sacrificial branch on that I plan on removing next Spring.

Also note the recommendation from @William N. Valavanis . Because you are eventually going to remove the sacrificial branch, you don't need to bother yourself with aesthetics. Bill strips all the foliage from the inner part of his sacrificial branches so the foliage doesn't shade his other branches and weaken them. He keeps foliage only on the end of the sacrificial branch.

 

[BigBen]

Thanks again for the GREAT information, BN!

 

[Johnathan]

Growing out: in the ground or in a large pot, regular nursery soil/ dirt/ compost/ peat and perlite... high in nutrients, high in water and nutrient retention.

Once to the desired thickness, and with the branches at least well on their way-you can start moving to Bonsai soil and Bonsai pots.

The rush to inorganic soils and smaller pots causes the death of so many trees for people new to Bonsai.

So I've been aiming to get most of my trees into pond baskets and NAPA DE, or slipped into it....

But what I should be doing is trying to get everything I want thickened up into a bigger pot with some good compost soil perlite mixture for a couple of years instead?

 

[Smoke]

The rush to inorganic soils and smaller pots causes the death of so many trees for people new to Bonsai.

BAM!!!

 

[Eric Group]

So I've been aiming to get most of my trees into pond baskets and NAPA DE, or slipped into it....

But what I should be doing is trying to get everything I want thickened up into a bigger pot with some good compost soil perlite mixture for a couple of years instead?

Yes, or the ground. Organic soils hold more moisture and nutrients which leads to more growth typically. Be careful to avoid "mucky" souls in pots... if using peat, supliment with bark and perlite, maybe even pumice or DE/ turface to keep it free draining and light.