High-speed steel Japanese scissors/bonsai tools?

[leatherback]

High hardness while maintaining toughness is where HSS excels. HAP-40 is usually around 67hrc, and many other types are in the 65+ range. High-carbon steels are usually too fragile if you try to harden them to these levels.

60hrc is pretty soft for cutting wood. Generally, you stay down in that 58-60 range if you have a brittle high-carbon steel and you want the edge to fold over rather than chip. I know some people prefer vintage O1 tools for that reason, or the softer shirogami #2 they make in Miki, but not me.

The funny thing here is that bonsai cutting tasks are much harder on edged tools than most woodworking operations. More force (leverage), dirty, abrasive materials. Everything HSS is perfectly suited to handle.

stop chatting. Get a manufacturer and bring on a new age in bonsai tools

 

[JoeWilson]

stop chatting. Get a manufacturer and bring on a new age in bonsai tools

Hey, I gotta get my post count up somehow. I emailed 3 places today, though. I need to dig around and find more suppliers/importers.

I will report back if anyone is willing to indulge my lunacy. (I doubt it)

 

[ralfish]

Personally I think it would be a big advancement. Look into Dr Slick carbide flytying scissors.(Just google those terms and several links should open) The possibility exists, it will just be a matter of convincing a bonsai scissor smith to try this. Good luck with that.

 

[Kievnstavick]

I'd felt like I should chime in as I have plenty of experience with HSS as a machinist.

When it comes to pruning and cutting, I feel like regular carbon steel is good enough to cut through organics. The carbon steel in our scissors and other tools are easier to sharpen given the abrasive nature of our work.I tried a few stainless steel bonsai tools, before I eventually swapped to carbon steel. I found the ease of sharpening and restoring the cutting edge to be a much easier and quicker process. I wasted less time resharpening my tools more often on my carbon tools vs the less frequent but more intensive sharpening of the stainless tools. I highly value my time and the more time playing with my trees rather then working on my tools brought me into the carbon steel tools camp. The Hand sharpening of HSS tooling would take a long time to remove any Knicks and dents cutting rocks will surely introduce to the cutting edge even if you are careful. You would also have to be more cognizant of the capacity of your tools.

Sure, if you are obsessive in sharpening it might not be that bad. As someone who often has to custom grind and resharpen their HSS tooling, I'd much rather using a grinding wheel to put on a new edge to a HSS tool rather then work out the dents with a stone.

I certainly think the cost alone of acquiring these specialty tools would be enough to turn most away even if they'd want the properties of HSS tooling. The tooling would need to be machined and ground to their unique forms rather then forged, shaped, and hand ground like many carbon steel tools available.

All in all though, to each their own.

 

[JoeWilson]

I'd felt like I should chime in as I have plenty of experience with HSS as a machinist.

When it comes to pruning and cutting, I feel like regular carbon steel is good enough to cut through organics. The carbon steel in our scissors and other tools are easier to sharpen given the abrasive nature of our work.I tried a few stainless steel bonsai tools, before I eventually swapped to carbon steel. I found the ease of sharpening and restoring the cutting edge to be a much easier and quicker process. I wasted less time resharpening my tools more often on my carbon tools vs the less frequent but more intensive sharpening of the stainless tools. I highly value my time and the more time playing with my trees rather then working on my tools brought me into the carbon steel tools camp. The Hand sharpening of HSS tooling would take a long time to remove any Knicks and dents cutting rocks will surely introduce to the cutting edge even if you are careful. You would also have to be more cognizant of the capacity of your tools.

Sure, if you are obsessive in sharpening it might not be that bad. As someone who often has to custom grind and resharpen their HSS tooling, I'd much rather using a grinding wheel to put on a new edge to a HSS tool rather then work out the dents with a stone.

I certainly think the cost alone of acquiring these specialty tools would be enough to turn most away even if they'd want the properties of HSS tooling. The tooling would need to be machined and ground to their unique forms rather then forged, shaped, and hand ground like many carbon steel tools available.

All in all though, to each their own.

For the average person with an entry level 1000/4000 grit sharpening stone I tend to agree. If you're not willing to go down the sharpening rabbit hole, high-carbon steel can be easier to maintain, as long as you’re willing to do it frequently.

But if you understand how to sharpen HSS and have the right kind of setup to do it, the additional time is minimal, let’s say an extra 50% per session. But the edge lasts so much longer, that over the long term you absolutely save a load of time if you use your tools a lot, let's say you sharpen 2-4x less frequently. That’s a big win in my view.

One of my other hobbies is restoring vintage Japanese chisels. I’ve restored/repaired/setup hundreds of them, many white and blue steel, and a good chunk of HSS as well. I’ve invested a good amount of effort into making the process fast.

What I’ve found works best is doing the rough work on a wet grinder. I’ve got a knockoff Tormek and a Makita 98202 horizontal wet grinder. The Makita in particular is a beast and really speeds up reprofiling work. With HSS, since there is much less risk of ruining the temper, you can use a low speed dry grinder too, if you have heavy reprofiling work to do, this is typically a lot easier and faster than with high-carbon, especially white steel, since you don’t have to baby it.

Of course, not everyone will have a grinder. But a coarse diamond plate, like an Atoma 140, eats chips on scissors in short order. You can get a series of diamond plates, but as I go through my progression, I like synthetic stones, as long as they are designed for HSS. For example, Sigma Power Select II and Naniwa Chosera. The Sigmas cut a little faster, but you have to presoak them, so I prefer the Naniwas and have a 400-1000-5000-10000 set. A Suehiro MD-200 is useful for getting the big scratches from diamond out quickly too. You don’t need all of this, especially for scissors. Going to 1000 grit is likely just fine for most people. And if you’re not dealing with big chips you can use something like a 300-400 grit diamond plate instead. That gets you down to maybe 2 or 3 stones. But stones that are meant to work with HSS make a huge difference. Even if you have high-carbon tools and never want to touch a HSS tool, good stones can save a bunch of time.

Now, I’m not saying everyone needs to go out and buy HSS tools and spend hundreds of dollars on sharpening stones and gear. But if you understand the tradeoffs and know how to work with them/have the ability to do so, they absolutely do make sense.

There’s a bit more nuance to sharpening speed, too. Not all HSS is the same; some of it is quicker to sharpen. PMV-11, which Veritas (Lee Valley) uses for their planes and chisels, isn’t so bad. Laminated Japanese HSS tools are easier to sharpen than solid HSS, because you only have that thin hagane layer to contend with. Really good quality laminated high-carbon tools tend to be the fastest to sharpen, because they use soft iron (old anchor chain and stuff like that) for the jigane, but most of the modern laminated stuff uses relatively hard mild steel, which takes more effort. There are only a few guys using soft iron these days, and their tools are spendy, if you can find them at all. I'm not sure if anyone is doing this in the bonsai world.

 

[JoeWilson]

Down the rabbit hole a bit more…

An importer got back to me. They say there’s a small number of smiths making bonsai tools, and they typically only work with the usual high-carbon steels, not HSS. I would have to get in touch with a smith directly and ask for something to be custom-made. Not surprised. If anyone has a direct line, let me know lol. Maybe I’ll reach out to a guy I know who works for a chisel smith, but I’m not holding my breath.

Hair cutting shears are where the big business is, apparently. You can find them in a much wider range of steels, including HSS like SG-2/R2 and all sorts of other high-end super steels. They are mind-numbingly expensive. Apparently, hairdressers are very fussy about their scissors. This should not surprise me either, my wife doesn’t even like it when I’m in the same room as her fabric shears.

Looks like Wazakura and Kikuwa (and maybe others) make scissors in Hitachi SLD aka D2. Not technically a high-speed steel, but this is closer to what I’m looking for. I can only seem to find it in scissors, not root cutters. They probably get the scissors and root cutters from different smiths. These appear to be wholesalers, not the actual blacksmiths. I’ll see if I can email them.

 

[yashu]

I can only imagine the frustration of most people trying to sharpen a knob or concave cutter made of hss

@JoeWilson you may be the only guy on this planet looking for this specific set of tools in this specific material. Don’t get me wrong, as a mid to high end pocket knife collector I can nerd out on steel as much as the next guy but I just don’t see the demand for bonsai tools in any more exotic metals than those of which they are already constructed. All that said, good luck on your quest!

 

[JoeWilson]

I can only imagine the frustration of most people trying to sharpen a knob or concave cutter made of hss

@JoeWilson you may be the only guy on this planet looking for this specific set of tools in this specific material. Don’t get me wrong, as a mid to high end pocket knife collector I can nerd out on steel as much as the next guy but I just don’t see the demand for bonsai tools in any more exotic metals than those of which they are already constructed. All that said, good luck on your quest!

Once you get over the sharpening hump, modern powdered high-speed steels are so nice, though. But I get it. To be clear, I didn’t make this thread to say that anyone else needs HSS tools, or that I expect this to become a common consumer product. I just know what I want, and why I want it, so I was hoping that someone might make it.

 

[vancehanna]

That's where HSS excels - cutting dirty and abrasive materials, and extremely dense hardwoods. It's tough as hell and stays sharp way longer than simple high-carbon steels if you work in messy conditions (see: any kind of root work). It's more rust resistant, too, closer to stainless (often called "semi-stainless"), but generally much harder and more durable than stainless.

It's more of a pain to sharpen (less so if you have stones designed for it), but you need to sharpen less often, so it's a pretty reasonable trade-off in my experience.

Anyway, by "it can be a thing if you want it to be", do you mean you know of a specific blacksmith that uses it or somewhere that it can be custom ordered?

For the record, hi carbon tool steel when tempered to the correct Rockwell 58~60 actually nearly as hard on the edge as HSS.
But soft at the core for flex. HSS , M4,M2 M14( hi cobalt) are brittle. Perfect for drills, taps, end mills, et al tough to bend into the traditional shears and such. Far too expensive of a material for the whole tool.

HSS was invented by Cln Butterfield just about the time of the civil war. He then later founded Butterfield tap and die in Athol,Mass

 

[ralfish]

For the record, hi carbon tool steel when tempered to the correct Rockwell 58~60 actually nearly as hard on the edge as HSS.
But soft at the core for flex. HSS , M4,M2 M14( hi cobalt) are brittle. Perfect for drills, taps, end mills, et al tough to bend into the traditional shears and such. Far too expensive of a material for the whole tool.

HSS was invented by Cln Butterfield just about the time of the civil war. He then later founded Butterfield tap and die in Athol,Mass

They wouldn't be bending HSS into a tool rather they forge weld a small strip on the cutting edge the same way they already do with white and blue steels etc in traditional bonsai tools. The Dr Slick fly tying scissors i mentioned earlier are pretty reasonable, I have a couple pair. I think the idea of HSS or if you really want an upgrade, PM steel (PMV-11) forge welded in the same way its already being done with white and blue steels etc wouldn't be outrageous or terribly more expensive if it can be readily done. I haven't heard of any traditional bonsai tool makers using cryo tempering either (just because i haven't heard of it being done doesn't means its not) and that would be an instant upgrade for very little up front cost

 

[JoeWilson]

For the record, hi carbon tool steel when tempered to the correct Rockwell 58~60 actually nearly as hard on the edge as HSS.
But soft at the core for flex. HSS , M4,M2 M14( hi cobalt) are brittle. Perfect for drills, taps, end mills, et al tough to bend into the traditional shears and such. Far too expensive of a material for the whole tool.

HSS was invented by Cln Butterfield just about the time of the civil war. He then later founded Butterfield tap and die in Athol,Mass

If we're talking about traditional Japanese high-carbon steels used in hand-forged tools, the master smiths in Japan typically worked with shirogami #1 in the 63-65 hrc range, and when it's forged and heat-treated well, it is truly exceptional stuff (rivaling some types of HSS for some tasks). I have some fantastic white steel tools that you will have to pry out of my cold, dead hands (Usui Kinzaburo and Takanbu Ikegami, you're on deck). The problem is, nearly all of those guys are long dead or retired, and their sons and especially their sons' sons went on to be bankers and accountants and have other, less physically demanding, more financially stable careers. So finding good examples is difficult.

In any case, high-carbon is a broad category that encompasses many types of steel, including most high-speed steels, so there isn't a "correct" hardness range for the category, and it certainly isn't 58-60. You're probably thinking of a specific cold tool steel like 01, so let's talk about that. Edge retention with 01 at ~59 hrc is well behind Hitachi's steels, and not remotely comparable to M2, let alone modern powdered high-speed steel and high-end stainless. O1 is soft and rolls over, rather than chipping or developing micro-fractures, when it dulls. It's a good quality if you're making millions of plane blades at the Stanley factory in the early to mid-20th century for tradies who couldn't identify a whetstone if you gave them a lineup, but other than that, it's not a particularly desirable trait in an edged tool.

You do not need to take my word for it, though:



Source: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/ - the vertical axis is edge retention. Note the hardness range, and how steels tested at various hardnesses tend to have better edge retention the harder they are tempered (to a limit, of course, any steel tempered beyond its ideal range is going to be too brittle).

I would love to see these guys test some honest-to-goodness hot-shit white steel forged by someone who knows (knew) what they're doing, but that's probably unrealistic.

As to the idea that HSS tools would be too expensive... M2 is one of the most affordable high-performance tool steels on the market. Usually less expensive than 01. Material cost wouldn't be a significant factor unless we're talking about the more exotic stuff (CPM et al).

 

[ralfish]

If we're talking about traditional Japanese high-carbon steels used in hand-forged tools, the master smiths in Japan typically worked with shirogami #1 in the 63-65 hrc range, and when it's forged and heat-treated well, it is truly exceptional stuff (rivaling some types of HSS for some tasks). I have some fantastic white steel tools that you will have to pry out of my cold, dead hands (Usui Kinzaburo and Takanbu Ikegami, you're on deck). The problem is, nearly all of those guys are long dead or retired, and their sons and especially their sons' sons went on to be bankers and accountants and have other, less physically demanding, more financially stable careers. So finding good examples is difficult.

In any case, high-carbon is a broad category that encompasses many types of steel, including most high-speed steels, so there isn't a "correct" hardness range for the category, and it certainly isn't 58-60. You're probably thinking of a specific cold tool steel like 01, so let's talk about that. Edge retention with 01 at ~59 hrc is well behind Hitachi's steels, and not remotely comparable to M2, let alone modern powdered high-speed steel and high-end stainless. O1 is soft and rolls over, rather than chipping or developing micro-fractures, when it dulls. It's a good quality if you're making millions of plane blades at the Stanley factory in the early to mid-20th century for tradies who couldn't identify a whetstone if you gave them a lineup, but other than that, it's not a particularly desirable trait in an edged tool.

You do not need to take my word for it, though:

View attachment 610125

Source: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/ - the vertical axis is edge retention. Note the hardness range, and how steels tested at various hardnesses tend to have better edge retention the harder they are tempered (to a limit, of course, any steel tempered beyond its ideal range is going to be too brittle).

I would love to see these guys test some honest-to-goodness hot-shit white steel forged by someone who knows (knew) what they're doing, but that's probably unrealistic.

As to the idea that HSS tools would be too expensive... M2 is one of the most affordable high-performance tool steels on the market. Usually less expensive than 01. Material cost wouldn't be a significant factor unless we're talking about the more exotic stuff (CPM et al).

This is the problem with the internet, someone says something in a magazine article or on-line blog etc and it get repeated as if it were true or factual. There is zero chance any old or even new Stanley plane irons were made from O1. nil. Most were made from some sort of W type high carbon steel. There are newer after market irons that are though along with A2, PMV-11 etc.

Saying O1 isn't a desirable or has an undesirable edge rolling downfall and makes it undesirable material for edge tools especially for plane irons, isn't accurate. Its exactly that characteristic that makes it desirable. it harder to chip, honing away a roll vs small chips is a time saver. I work with edge tools for wood working every day, I did, and do (And was a manual machinist so have pretty deep experience with working with a variety of tool steels over the last 40+ years). O1 is a vey desirable plane iron material not because it holds an edge longer than the other very common replacement material A2, it doesn't), but because you can get it more keen and it's noticeably quicker to bring back to a keen edge. I know of a couple highend plane makers who are also regular hand tool users etc who have gone back to O1 for this reason. Look up Sauer and Steiner for example. I have a collection of different irons made of different materials for certain planes, what I use will depend what and what wood I'm planing. Even when I turn wood I have a collection of tools made of different tool steels for the same reason. Even W steels which last about one pass, but I can get that steel more keen than any other and for certain materials for the final pass its what I'll use. Even with the PM steels available, which are the new standard in wood turning tools just like how HSS replaced O1 and W steels in the 80s, it still can not be beat for that specific purpose. Anyhow, if you're going down this rabbit hole, rather than HSS id go with one of the PM steels as they can do everything HSS can and then some. And also include Cryo tempering as that adds noticeable durability and greater edge retention.

 

[JoeWilson]

This is the problem with the internet, someone says something in a magazine article or on-line blog etc and it get repeated as if it were true or factual. There is zero chance any old or even new Stanley plane irons were made from O1. nil. Most were made from some sort of W type high carbon steel. There are newer after market irons that are though along with A2, PMV-11 etc.

Saying O1 isn't a desirable or has an undesirable edge rolling downfall and makes it undesirable material for edge tools especially for plane irons, isn't accurate. Its exactly that characteristic that makes it desirable. it harder to chip, honing away a roll vs small chips is a time saver. I work with edge tools for wood working every day, I did, and do (And was a manual machinist so have pretty deep experience with working with a variety of tool steels over the last 40+ years). O1 is a vey desirable plane iron material not because it holds an edge longer than the other very common replacement material A2, it doesn't), but because you can get it more keen and it's noticeably quicker to bring back to a keen edge. I know of a couple highend plane makers who are also regular hand tool users etc who have gone back to O1 for this reason. Look up Sauer and Steiner for example. I have a collection of different irons made of different materials for certain planes, what I use will depend what and what wood I'm planing. Even when I turn wood I have a collection of tools made of different tool steels for the same reason. Even W steels which last about one pass, but I can get that steel more keen than any other and for certain materials for the final pass its what I'll use. Even with the PM steels available, which are the new standard in wood turning tools just like how HSS replaced O1 and W steels in the 80s, it still can not be beat for that specific purpose. Anyhow, if you're going down this rabbit hole, rather than HSS id go with one of the PM steels as they can do everything HSS can and then some. And also include Cryo tempering as that adds noticeable durability and greater edge retention.

Sure, some people prefer soft steels that roll over like O1. I've never been in that camp. IMO, rolling is only a benefit if you consistently wait too long to sharpen your tools. High-speed steels typically go from very sharp to sharp-ish and stay there for a very long time. You have to seriously abuse them to get them to chip out so badly that restoring the edge is a problem. I'm not a big fan of A2 or aogami either; these are sort of no-man's land steels in my view, alloy steels that are difficult to sharpen but don't hold an edge all that long.

Anywho, if peak sharpness and ease of sharpening are your primary requirements, you should probably be looking at Hitachi steels or maybe something from Sweden. Look into the steels that the Kezurou-kai guys use for their planes if you want to go down this rabbit hole. Peak sharpness has never been all that meaningful to me, as after you tap the tool into wood a few times, you're back down to the sharpness level of any old tool steel. Most people don't sharpen well enough that the characteristics of the steel are the limiting factor anyway.

Powdered metal steels are typically high-speed steels. Historically, the problem with HSS was that the carbides were quite large, making it difficult to hone to a keen edge. PM steels get around this by grinding the steel into a powder, creating smaller carbide particles. But yes, I would love to see bonsai tools in some variety of PM steel, as I've mentioned numerous times. CPM-M4, PM-V11, HAP-40, etc - gimme gimme. A tough PM stainless steel, like CPM-MagnaCut, would be lovely to see too.

 

[vancehanna]

Honestly after nearly 50 years of owning an entire case of every Masakuni tool made and at the same time selling them on a wholesale and retail basis in the Michigan area, the hi carbon steel Masakuni tool is my choice. Sure there are others and even now Hojin Chinese are up to near similar quality….
They stay sharp, and I am an expert on keeping them sharp from a cutting tool (Butterfield, Union Twist, Reiff & Nester, Niagra Cutter, et al) background of 50 yrs also….that why bother with other fussy HHS, PM, etc material!!
The real trick is keeping a bonsai alive and in a sense making it happen from either a seed or a yamadori and possibly into a show piece.
As Toshio Sambumoru used to say:
“Enjoy your bonsai”.