Hinoki Cypress chamacyparis obtusa kosteri
- Thread starter Ris
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MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Nice Hinoki Ris and good work! Perhaps you might want to consider this as a next step? I would only keep the top 1/3 and jin the rest. What's left I'd bend way down and bring closer to trunk.
Ris
Shohin
Thanks MACH5, it took about 5 hrs to finish 3/4 of it I still need to jin the top (yes thats the plan) but was tired and needed to get some other stuff done around the house. Will finish the rest of wiring tomorrow morning and post a final picture.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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- USDA Zone
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I agree with Mach5. I think you need to get all that foliage closer to the trunk, so trying to get more movement into the branches AND pulling them down closer to the trunk would really go a long way. I don't think I'd remove any more foliage or branching right now, except for the lowest left branch...it's too long and straight and all the foliage is too far from the trunk, and these guys don't back bud very well. You can always go back and remove and jin unneeded branches next year. Good start and will look great in a few years
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Definitely agree. Leave it alone for the rest of the year.
This is a great trunk... strong, upright, nice smooth taper. I would have snatched this hinoki up if I saw it at a nursery for the right price.
Couple of comments. First, with such a strong trunkline, the nebari will be veryimportant to the design of this tree (unlike, say, a dynamic collected juniper). Have you uncovered it yet? Is it grafted or ungrafted? IMO this information is critical to the future of this tree. Most if not all kosteri I have seen are grafted.
As others have mentioned the lack of backbuds is a problem. If nothing happens this year in terms of miraculous backbudding, you might have to consider grafting.
If it were my tree, I would be shopping around for a bunch of young kosteri plants and prepare them for approach grafting. I don't think you need to add new branches - you just need to add foliage closer to the trunk on the branches that already exist. You may even want to plant the big boy in the ground for this, as this will be a pretty long term project. But a year or two of grafting and a couple more of growth could produce an outstanding piece of hinoki material.
Kosteri is much stronger than nana, so you are fortunate in this respect.
Thats my 2 cents on how to get the most out of this material.
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october
Masterpiece
Good tree, typical hinoki. I just want to throw a couple of things out there and far as horticulture. There will be no backbudding on this tree. If you look at the tree, you do not see one bud on there. All foliage is at the ends of the branches, none on the trunk or on the first parts of the branches.
I would not attempt grafting on this tree. Grafts would mean opening up parts of the cambium. On those thin, young branches, some of the energy flowing towards the ends might be interupted. If the grafts don't take, it may be counter productive. You want all the energy that the tree has, uniterurpted, going into the branches. Also, I would not cut any more foliage off of this tree. These trees shed foliage in winter, if the tree was to shed right now, it would have hardly any foliage on it, which may be the end of it. Right now, foliage production is the main priority for this tree. I would leave the tree alone for maybe a year or so. At which time, you will need to rewire and get the branches/foliage in closer to the trunk. Then, use the future years to let the newly placed foliage fill in the areas.
Also, unless the tree is in terrible soil, I would not repot it this year. Mach5's virt, in my opinion, is something to strive for.
Rob
I would not attempt grafting on this tree. Grafts would mean opening up parts of the cambium. On those thin, young branches, some of the energy flowing towards the ends might be interupted. If the grafts don't take, it may be counter productive. You want all the energy that the tree has, uniterurpted, going into the branches. Also, I would not cut any more foliage off of this tree. These trees shed foliage in winter, if the tree was to shed right now, it would have hardly any foliage on it, which may be the end of it. Right now, foliage production is the main priority for this tree. I would leave the tree alone for maybe a year or so. At which time, you will need to rewire and get the branches/foliage in closer to the trunk. Then, use the future years to let the newly placed foliage fill in the areas.
Also, unless the tree is in terrible soil, I would not repot it this year. Mach5's virt, in my opinion, is something to strive for.
Rob
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This is going to be the only direction you can go with this tree. Hinokis do not back bud well, if at all, on bare wood. You are going to have to strive to develop any and all growth you have that is developing in towards the trunk and you will have to strive to draw the branches in toward the trunk. Hinokis are not like Junipers where you can more or less depend to give you new growth on old wood, you're kind of stuck with what you have unless you are adept at grafting.
This is solid advice. Rob knows how to handle hinoki.
Personally, I still think this tree needs grafting to reachs its maximum potential, and I do think it is possible on the majority of branches, which seem to be at least pencil thickness. While Rob is right it could be counterproductive if the grafts don't take, I think it is worth the risk.
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
In my view, I also believe grafting is not completely warranted here. Or perhaps not yet. If not done correctly (and even so), it may potentially weaken and set this tree back. I personally would not opt to graft in this case. At the very least, grafting would be a technique I may employ later in the game.
If Ris chooses to follow the suggested design direction as per the sketch, I think as he bends down the branches and they fold over the areas below it, he can visually fill the empty gaps with the existing foliage and some deft wiring. It goes without saying that the foliage would then need to be allowed to develop further.
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daytona1911
Mame
I wish we could grow these here in central Florida.
Ris
Shohin
Its not a graft, has a very nice wide base I did check a little but hands was in dirt no pic of it.
Its currently resting for this year and will pot it next spring, nice thing is that it was field grown but spent a long time in nursery pot before it was placed in ground. Wish I knew the age of it but more important its great material to spend 5 to 8 years working on branch.
Thanks for your advise.
Rishi.
Ris
Shohin
Well for now this hinoki will be resting also I have no intention to graft till it really is needed.
I looked at what soil this was in and seams like pure peatmoss with small persentage of wood chips mixed. I had to repot this today with better drainage soil, didn't cut any fine roots but a few stubs needed coming of. Didn't remove any foilage from last picture, wish I had checked the soil before working on it but what's done is done. I did and have been doing my home work on hinoki's that being said I know I pushed this tree hard but it should recover ok.
As far as back budding goes its true for old branches but most of the branches are pencil thick so am sure some buds will come from the foilage areas.
Really appreciate all the input for development.
I looked at what soil this was in and seams like pure peatmoss with small persentage of wood chips mixed. I had to repot this today with better drainage soil, didn't cut any fine roots but a few stubs needed coming of. Didn't remove any foilage from last picture, wish I had checked the soil before working on it but what's done is done. I did and have been doing my home work on hinoki's that being said I know I pushed this tree hard but it should recover ok.
As far as back budding goes its true for old branches but most of the branches are pencil thick so am sure some buds will come from the foilage areas.
Really appreciate all the input for development.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Let us know how that works out for you. It has been my experience with Hinoki, and I have one I have been working on since 1994 and I have never seen back budding on anything that has become woody. Actually on a Hinoki pencil thick is a pretty stout branch. My rule is if it has bark instead of green scales the days of back budding are gone. This is what makes Hinokis so difficult, they take constant watching and attention to detail. If you blow your chances where the growth is active you generally do not have a fall back point to go to like you would with a pine, juniper, or Elm.
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october
Masterpiece
Their stubborness knows no bounds..lol.. Even if an area is green and you pinch back a little too far, but still to the green, if it is old green, it may not grow ever. The tree will keep the area alive forever though. To me, one of the most important pieces of advice is to always leave some, new fresh green. When pinching, if you pinch back beyond the fresh, new green, it may not bud.
I think we should amend the statement it will grow from where it's green to it will grow from where there is new, light green growth.
Rob
I think we should amend the statement it will grow from where it's green to it will grow from where there is new, light green growth.
Rob
Ris
Shohin
Thanks guys for sharing you experience,
I will take a few close up of the foilage with where I pinched leaving new green
growth. Hey am no pro so will learn from my mistakes, the next one I buy I will
not prune so much and focus on retaining all foilage close to the trunk.
I tried to do the best I could with what I had that's all, if foilage was closer to the trunk
great it would be perfect right, but in this case the tree was 4ft tall 3ft wide I didn't expect
to find any green close to the trunk but what is seen. The nursery I got this from is not a
Bonsai nursery, so pruning was done only to keep the tree at bay...
I will take a few close up of the foilage with where I pinched leaving new green
growth. Hey am no pro so will learn from my mistakes, the next one I buy I will
not prune so much and focus on retaining all foilage close to the trunk.
I tried to do the best I could with what I had that's all, if foilage was closer to the trunk
great it would be perfect right, but in this case the tree was 4ft tall 3ft wide I didn't expect
to find any green close to the trunk but what is seen. The nursery I got this from is not a
Bonsai nursery, so pruning was done only to keep the tree at bay...
Ris
Shohin
http://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com/2008/01/taming-hinoki-cypress.html
http://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com/search/label/Taming the "Hinoki" Cypress Pt II
Take a look at this hinoki progress, how hard did this guy prune/wire?
http://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com/search/label/Taming the "Hinoki" Cypress Pt II
Take a look at this hinoki progress, how hard did this guy prune/wire?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Their stubborness knows no bounds..lol.. Even if an area is green and you pinch back a little too far, but still to the green, if it is old green, it may not grow ever. The tree will keep the area alive forever though. To me, one of the most important pieces of advice is to always leave some, new fresh green. When pinching, if you pinch back beyond the fresh, new green, it may not bud.
I think we should amend the statement it will grow from where it's green to it will grow from where there is new, light green growth.
Rob
That's probably the safest decision. You cannot take an approach with a Hinoki that you expect some back budding when you cut back hard. It may happen if you're in the green but, as you have pointed out, there is no guarantee or even a reasonable promise. "Maybe" is not a good direction in working with this tree. Why do you think that there are so few examples of Hinoki bonsai in Japan?
davetree
Omono
Are you sure about this tree not being grafted ? I thought that dwarf hinoki were all grafted, especially if you bought it at a non-bonsai nursery. Dig down deep around the base you may find the graft.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I have never noticed a graft on a Hinoki and I have worked with maybe a hundred of them over the years. If they are, because all of them seem to have the same bark and wood characteristics, the graft becomes unnoticeable. I do know that sometimes a Hinoki will throw out a shoot with the species characteristics different from the cultivar and not at a point below where a graft would be expected to occur.
davetree
Omono
The regular hinoki is not grafted, but I believe all of the dwarf varieties in the nursery trade are. The non-dwarf root stock is supposedly less vulnerable to disease. The Bonsaitonight blog has an article about a grafted dwarf hinoki with pictures and the graft is obvious.
