Hobbyist only

[Tachigi]

The very name Growing Grounds sounds like these people would have something I might be interested in.

Vance & everyone else, for your entertainment I present you with The Growing Grounds trees range from 175 to 9000 (forsythia). This nursery besides my own are the only ones that produce trunks in a traditional method for bonsai culture that I am aware of on the east coast. I'll probably get nailed for that

 

[Anonymous User]

Pre-bonsai, raw stock, nursery stock, collected stock, all have one thing in common, it can be good or it can be crap. What really matters is the talent of the person working on the stock. Trust me when I say that a person with real talent can do far more with a Home-depot tree than a person with little talent could do with a $10,000 piece of pre-bonsai stock imported from the finest gardens of Japan.

To tell a person that hasn't yet refined their talent to go out and buy a advanced piece of quality stock borders on the insane, it would be like telling a person who is just learning how to paint to paint on the most expensive canvas money can buy. This would be foolish, to say the least.

While we are on this comparison, a piece of stock is the canvas that we use to create artistic bonsai, nothing more, nothing less. A talented artist can create on even the cheapest canvas, the Mona Lisa is painted on a board, for example, and not the finest canvas available at the time. Why? For the same reason many aspiring bonsai artist use inexpensive stock, it's affordable.

Just because someone is working on a collected tree from the highest mountain or a purchased pre-bonsai which is ready to be painted by the numbers, doesn't mean they will create better, more visually pleasing bonsai, no in fact, they will create only what their talent will allow them to.

The only reason a novice should buy quality stock is to learn refinement, and that means something that is a lot further along than "stock" because "stock" is not even close to refinement.

The disservice that is being done to bonsai is telling novices that they must buy material that is beyond their means, beyond their talent, and beyond their understanding, not suggesting that they should start out with and look for quality nursery material.

In this issue of the American Bonsai Society's Journal (in the mail now), I have an article on collecting from nurseries in which I have some pictures of the stock I purchased from local nurseries. I challenge anyone to show me specialized bonsai nursery material of the same quality for the same price.

The smart bonsaist buys where the good stock is and where the price is, as much as I support America's bonsai industry, the golden rule of business is that you have to be competitive, do not expect us to shop at your place of business based solely on the fact that your shingle has the word "bonsai" on it.

There are three bonsai shops within driving distance of me, I frequent all three because not one of them carries everything I need. I also shop at local nurseries, on-line, and at club sales or auctions. What I wouldn't give for a one stop shopping place, but even Walmart fails there. Strangely, the best stock I can find comes from none of the local bonsai shops, but instead from the local run of the mill, mom and pop nurseries. When I do see a halfway decent piece at a bonsai shop, the mark-up turns me off, not that I can't afford it, but that someone would think the word "pre-bonsai" is worth a 600% markup or more.

As to pre-bonsai, that is a matter of personal opinion and mine is that I prefer all the work to be my own. Give me raw, rough, naked stock! (A grower at heart)


Will

 

[Tachigi]

Trust me when I say that a person with real talent can do far more with a Home-depot tree than a person with little talent could do with a $10,000 piece of pre-bonsai stock imported from the finest gardens of Japan.

I think that's a given, unless your J. Paul Getty

To tell a person that hasn't yet refined their talent to go out and buy a advanced piece of quality stock borders on the insane, it would be like telling a person who is just learning how to paint to paint on the most expensive canvas money can buy. This would be foolish, to say the least

I can think of two "Pros" that might differ with you on this. Your terminology of advanced stock is confusing. Is a stump or tree that has been developed for bonsai culture considered advanced or is it a raw piece of "normal" material that one would expect. I suspect if a person bought an advanced piece with the guidance of someone that could help hone the talent of that person. Then the tree and the person would develop over time (as it should be) and each would be intertwined as they grew. The tree helping the person visualize what could be and the person helping the tree meet its potential. A very useful and powerful technique Colin uses in his classes.

The disservice that is being done to bonsai is telling novices that they must buy material that is beyond their means, beyond their talent, and beyond their understanding, not suggesting that they should start out with and look for quality nursery material.

I think that is a mute point. I reference BT where the norm is novices going out an obtaining nursery stock. Even when the greats go NO....NO....NO. I don't believe many will ever part ways with nursery stock for no other reason than from a financial perspective.

In this issue of the American Bonsai Society's Journal (in the mail now), I have an article on collecting from nurseries in which I have some pictures of the stock I purchased from local nurseries. I challenge anyone to show me specialized bonsai nursery material of the same quality for the same price.

Alas, I don't get ABS's Journal. So I won't be able to take you up on the challenge I would one day like to see the pictures though.

I will say this on your challenge. Your comparing apples to oranges so it would be virtually impossible to beat you at the challenge just from the point of pricing.

I think the problem with most when it comes to trees and growers is that, most growers in the US stick the trees in the ground set the timer for X amount of years do a little work above the soil line. When the timer goes of they yank the tree from the ground and sell it. The expected reaction from the buyer as represented here would be, hey I could do that and for a lot less. The trick here is to differentiate the hand full of growers that work the top and the bottom of the tree systematically over a undetermined period of time ( no wine before its time), instead of the timer method. Once those growers are identified or the rest of the growers adopt the same method. Then will people justify the price of basic stock.

Or, you could just grow them

 

[Jon Chown]

Some excellent replies to this thread. A couple that I would like to respond to.

I believe that Bonsainut has hit the nail on the head with the various stages of artist/hobbyist, I particularly have empathy with stage three –

3) The "hobbyist" who makes the big leap and starts taking bonsai classes and potentially joins a bonsai society. They realize that 99% of the time spent in stages (1) and (2) above was wasted. They start obtaining and training better quality trees, including some that might be show quality. With success, they buy more difficult and expensive trees, and start to make the switch from lots of cheap trees to few expensive trees.

Although perhaps 99% is a little high – the Horticultural learning aspect was fine and I guess fits in with Wills statement –

Pre-bonsai, raw stock, nursery stock, collected stock, all have one thing in common, it can be good or it can be crap. What really matters is the talent of the person working on the stock. Trust me when I say that a person with real talent can do far more with a Home-depot tree than a person with little talent could do with a $10,000 piece of pre-bonsai stock imported from the finest gardens of Japan.

To tell a person that hasn't yet refined their talent to go out and buy a advanced piece of quality stock borders on the insane, it would be like telling a person who is just learning how to paint to paint on the most expensive canvas money can buy. This would be foolish, to say the least.

However, it is my opinion that statements like the following –

In this issue of the American Bonsai Society's Journal (in the mail now), I have an article on collecting from nurseries in which I have some pictures of the stock I purchased from local nurseries. I challenge anyone to show me specialized bonsai nursery material of the same quality for the same price.

The smart bonsaist buys where the good stock is and where the price is, as much as I support America's bonsai industry, the golden rule of business is that you have to be competitive, do not expect us to shop at your place of business based solely on the fact that your shingle has the word "bonsai" on it.

are equally foolish – well, with due respect to Will who obviously has excellent garden nurseries in his location.

For a start we have to compare apples with apples (or stock to stock). And here I must qualify again that upon reading all of the people who seem to manage finding good nursery stock at their local nursery – Your garden nurseries must be way better than ours. I live less than 1klm from the largest in our City and for a start they don’t have, Japanese Maple, Juniper, Quince, Larch, Oak, Swamp Cypress and many others that I can’t seem to think of right now, however the closest grower to me is about 20k away and he not only has all of this but he has them from $8 to $800.00 from 6 inch pots to four man grow bags. To advise even beginners to not support him would boarder on stupidity.

The average Garden center will place a seedling (tube stock) into a 6inch pot and stick it on the grow mat with another couple of hundred seedlings, water it and feed it till the roots grow out of the pot, some they will slip pot into a larger pot to grow into bigger trees, the others they will sell. How does one compare this with the grower who diligently trims, feeds, weeds, repots, prunes and shapes, trunk chops and generally thickens the stock into something that may resemble a bonsai and he does this for several years – lets say an investment of 20 hours at an hourly rate of what $20 would equal $400. Not hard to rack up the dollars if you charge for your time, unlike hobbyists who believe that their time is worth nothing.

And Will

As to pre-bonsai, that is a matter of personal opinion and mine is that I prefer all the work to be my own. Give me raw, rough, naked stock! (A grower at heart)

That’s all well and good if you are a whippersnipper but no good to me at 60, I just can’t be bothered wasting the time that I have left watching twigs grow – I’ve done that already and I’m about at level 3 on Bonsainuts levelometer.

Jon

 

[Anonymous User]

Tom, Jon,

Excellent rebuttals, thank you.


Will

 

[cbobgo]

Nice debate, and I'm pleased there has been no name calling or stomping off yet.

Wii said:
"To tell a person that hasn't yet refined their talent to go out and buy a advanced piece of quality stock borders on the insane, it would be like telling a person who is just learning how to paint to paint on the most expensive canvas money can buy. This would be foolish, to say the least."

2 things to say about this - firstly, comparing bonsai to painting is not really a valid analogy. A painter does not make a painting out of canvas. The stock is more than the canvas, it is all the raw material we have to work with. You can paint on anything, like you said, but your final bonsai tree must come from what is originally there on that stock. If you start with flawed stock, it is going to take you a heck of a lot longer to get to your final bonsai.

secondly, I'd like to give an example of a relative beginner who has started with some advanced stock. Take a look at JasonG. He's only been doing bonsai for about 3 years. Think back to what you all were doing 3 years into bonsai - I wager you were not working on stuff like his massive RMJ. In 3 more years, Jason will take that tree (with some guidance from Walter) to WORLD CLASS levels. Can anyone say that about 3 years of work on a wallmart juniper? I think not. I would't call that insanity.

If you start with high quality, even if you don't have a ton of experience, you will be way ahead of the curve.

- bob

 

[Vance Wood]

Nice debate, and I'm pleased there has been no name calling or stomping off yet.

Wii said:
"To tell a person that hasn't yet refined their talent to go out and buy a advanced piece of quality stock borders on the insane, it would be like telling a person who is just learning how to paint to paint on the most expensive canvas money can buy. This would be foolish, to say the least."

2 things to say about this - firstly, comparing bonsai to painting is not really a valid analogy. A painter does not make a painting out of canvas. The stock is more than the canvas, it is all the raw material we have to work with. You can paint on anything, like you said, but your final bonsai tree must come from what is originally there on that stock. If you start with flawed stock, it is going to take you a heck of a lot longer to get to your final bonsai.

secondly, I'd like to give an example of a relative beginner who has started with some advanced stock. Take a look at JasonG. He's only been doing bonsai for about 3 years. Think back to what you all were doing 3 years into bonsai - I wager you were not working on stuff like his massive RMJ. In 3 more years, Jason will take that tree (with some guidance from Walter) to WORLD CLASS levels. Can anyone say that about 3 years of work on a wallmart juniper? I think not. I would't call that insanity.

If you start with high quality, even if you don't have a ton of experience, you will be way ahead of the curve.

- bob

Not meaning to belittle any one's effort, but again you are comparing apples and oranges. Jason is a student of Walter's? That's almost the same as having Walter pick the stock and do the work. Most people in general don't have much in the way of a teacher outside of some hack like myself. Anyone who has people like Walter, or Boon or Kimura breathing down their neck has automatically gained ten years worth of experience by not having to learn a lot of stuff the hard way. Any teacher like the above is not going to be happy helping a student with something from Home Depot, K Mart, or The Little Shop of Horrors. I can just about guarantee that a teacher of this caliber is going to insist on high caliber material, not out of snobbishness but out of experience and an instinctive sense of artistry. You cannot teach someone to fly an air plane sitting in a garbage can.

One other point: Starting with high end material does not guarantee high end result or even a head start as in being ahead of the curve. I have seen high end material destroyed by so called experts on several bonsai forums, enough so as to be confident in saying the point you are trying to make here ain't so.

 

[Tachigi]

Not meaning to belittle any one's effort, but again you are comparing apples and oranges. Jason is a student of Walter's? That's almost the same as having Walter pick the stock and do the work. Most people in general don't have much in the way of a teacher outside of some hack like myself. Anyone who has people like Walter, or Boon or Kimura breathing down their neck has automatically gained ten years worth of experience by not having to learn a lot of stuff the hard way. Any teacher like the above is not going to be happy helping a student with something from Home Depot, K Mart, or The Little Shop of Horrors. I can just about guarantee that a teacher of this caliber is going to insist on high caliber material, not out of snobbishness but out of experience and an instinctive sense of artistry. You cannot teach someone to fly an air plane sitting in a garbage can.

Vance, I am a student of Colin's. Have been for the past 6 years. I also have studied with Walter on occasion. So I have some insight into what you are saying.

I can say with absolute certainty, and with respect to you, that your statement is dead wrong. When I began with Colin he didn't pick my material. I learned from him that a good piece of material was more beneficial, and that a quality piece would eventually put out a more convincing image in the long run. It was more an awakening than a lesson learned.

As for not learning it the hard way all I can say is BullS&*t (pardon my french). Putting in 20 hours a day for 3 or 4 consecutive days listening to lectures, practicing wiring, practicing design, practicing material selection. The hours upon hours of critique from him and my peers. Collecting in -0 conditions. The failures of choosing poor material as well as the successes. Lets also not forget about the financial commitment....you wanna talk about the hard way, think about that. As for material I have had both "breath down my back" on home depot stock as well as $2500 pieces of fine yamadori. I don't think you give them enough credit, they are teachers as well as masters and they excel at both. I'm sure in their heart of hearts an old piece from the Rockies or Alps would please them, but the bottom line is they work with what they have to get the message and lesson across. Not insisting on high caliber material to teach the lesson. Only insisting that the lesson be learned. There is a post by Colin in your article The Problem With American Bonsai on AoB where he refers to the "Europeanization" of his students, which is worth a read for people who haven't done so yet. I think that his post pretty much says it all. We learned, with a critical eye, what to choose. Nursery stock or or high end material and what we could expect reasonably from each. They never said not to pick nursery material, just keep your expectations in line with what you choose and don't come running to me crying when it doesn't materialize into a masterpiece after 20 years.

Most people in general don't have much in the way of a teacher

That is each persons decision. Their decision to dabble or to immerse themselves and commit to raising the level of their art. Colin has 4 or 5 different school locations. Walter instructs all over the country, as do most others. So the instruction is there to be had. The question is will people seize the opportunity.

 

[Anonymous User]

So, let me be so bold as to say, it is not the location where the stock was collected, or the name of the business where it was bought, it is not the country where it was original grown, nor the fact if it is was purchased from a specialized bonsai business or not.

What matters is the quality of the stock, not where is was purchased from, or the price paid.

After the purchase it is all on the talent of the person doing the work, a mediocre talent can screw up a quality piece of stock just as well as a poor piece. The stock doesn't magically impart talent onto the purchaser, never has, never will.


For the record, I have seen many of Walter's progressions, I can't remember one in which he started with pre-bonsai.


Will

 

[Tachigi]

The stock doesn't magically impart talent onto the purchaser, never has, never will.

No argument from me on that. However a quality piece of stock will point a twig in the right direction to the purchaser. It is up to the purchaser to bring what forces he has in his arsenal to bear.

For the record, I have seen many of Walter's progressions, I can't remember one in which he started with pre-bonsai.

This post may or may not be prebonsai stock by definition, but definitely isn't "high caliber material" by Walters description. I might even go as far as to say that Walter has obtained yamadori that has been containerized. By definition that would be prebonsai since undoubtedly had its foliage selectively thinned when collected and its been cooking (hopefully)for well over a year in a pot after its roots were groomed.

This topic by its nature is an arguable one. I say to each his own, just don't knock the other guy.

 

[Vance Wood]

As for not learning it the hard way all I can say is BullS&*t (pardon my french). Putting in 20 hours a day for 3 or 4 consecutive days listening to lectures, practicing wiring, practicing design, practicing material selection. The hours upon hours of critique from him and my peers. Collecting in -0 conditions. The failures of choosing poor material as well as the successes. Lets also not forget about the financial commitment....you wanna talk about the hard way, think about that..

That's not the hard way, as I define the hard way having to make it by yourself and try to learn from books and magazines. The way you describe is not hard it is grueling and difficult but it is programed, watched and over-seen by a master, wish I had it so hard. As you described it every aspect of what you did was critiqued and corrected. This is hard? I don't think so.

As for material I have had both "breath down my back" on home depot stock as well as $2500 pieces of fine yamadori. I don't think you give them enough credit, they are teachers as well as masters and they excel at both. I'm sure in their heart of hearts an old piece from the Rockies or Alps would please them, but the bottom line is they work with what they have to get the message and lesson across. Not insisting on high caliber material to teach the lesson. Only insisting that the lesson be learned. There is a post by Colin in your article The Problem With American Bonsai on AoB where he refers to the "Europeanization" of his students, which is worth a read for people who haven't done so yet. I think that his post pretty much says it all. We learned, with a critical eye, what to choose. Nursery stock or or high end material and what we could expect reasonably from each. They never said not to pick nursery material, just keep your expectations in line with what you choose and don't come running to me crying when it doesn't materialize into a masterpiece after 20 years..

Here again the material is critiqued, and the bad stuff is rebuffed and identified.

That is each persons decision. Their decision to dabble or to immerse themselves and commit to raising the level of their art. Colin has 4 or 5 different school locations. Walter instructs all over the country, as do most others. So the instruction is there to be had. The question is will people seize the opportunity.

Not everyone has the opportunity, funds or time to do these kinds of programs with these people. I don't think it is fair to suggest that they should. Not everyone has the resources to go to a University but they should. What they should does not always line up with the reality of what they can.

 

[Brent]

I would just like to comment on how well everyone has handled this touchy topic so far. It is so refreshing to have a REAL debate without devolving into a food fight. See how much really good stuff can come out, if we just suppress that urge to attack, and instead actually confront and question rationally our fellow members? Keep up the good work.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

 

[cbobgo]

So Vance, what you're saying is that people should be content with whatever quality material they happen to find at their local garden center, and figure it out on their own without help? Is that how we should all do bonsai? You are only a "true" bonsaist if you do it the "hard way"?


- bob

 

[Vance Wood]

You are putting words in my mouth, I did not say that at all. I have no problem with people having that kind of instruction with the masters, more power to them. I do however resent being looked down on for not doing the same, or having the argument made that without this kind of instruction you cannot possible learn how to grow bonsai properly. I know, now I am putting words in your mouth.

As to the quality of material. There is good quality material out there all over the place, but most people don't know how to find it or don't have an eye for it. I wish I had the money I have seen wasted on stock that was expensive--- and because it was expensive it was assumed to be good. Just because someone pays $500 for a tree does not mean that the tree is exceptional, other than exceptionally expensive. I am however glad to see people willing to pay this kind of money for a tree, that's encouraging for me and my plans for the future. Just because someone pays $20 dollars for a tree does not mean it is a piece of crapola. Money does not make or break the quality issue, it only provides something else to argue about. If a person does not recognize a good piece of $20 nursery material, it is more likely that they are going to get scammed when they purchase a $500 price tag wrongly or rightly attached to a tree that may be worth $500 or maybe $20. It's not about the money, It's not about the money, It's not about the money.

I have a nursery grown Mugo I have been offered $150 for. I paid $5. for it.

 

[cbobgo]

no one's looking down on you Vance - you've proven many times that you know what you are doing. And the fact that you do it with cheap stock is impressive.

But most people don't have that ability. It takes alot of skill to bring something impressive out of a nursery stock. I think what we've been trying to say is that if a person starts with something that has had some basic work already, they will be able to continue that process and end up with a decent looking tree in a reasonable time frame (with the usual caveats that they know how to keep it alive and don't do stupid drastic things to the tree.) Of course it's no guarentee of success, but I believe that it will improve the chances of ending up with something nice.

- bob

 

[Vance Wood]

Thank you, that was a nice thing to say. As to the good material, you probably have a point, but of course there is a big down side in the care department.

 

[Behr]

I should actually stay out of this and just enjoy reading and learning from the thread, instead I have the urge to express a few thoughts I have on the subject...I feel the 'real' issue being expressed by both sides here is dependent in part at least on one's background and education...My observations through the years have helped me to realize that most bonsai practitioners which have studied under a 'master' or other highly skilled teacher, seem to 'learn and do' according to the 'accepted' Japanese guidelines...This is certainly best and easiest achieved with stock that has been grown and cultivated for the purpose of bonsai...Most of the material grown for bonsai, whether by a professional grower or one growing their own stock, is grown and developed with certain guidelines in mind...It is only right that the professional grower be reimbursed for the time, knowledge, and effort that they have put in to cultivating the material and developing it to be 'refined' by the purchaser...Many really nice trees have been developed this way...

Others, and I think I fall into the same situation as Mr. Vance here, have learned the things we know in a slightly different manner [ie: books, observations, and mostly 'trial and error']...I don't read the posts at AoB daily but instead catch up about once a week...Today I had the extreme pleasure to read the article penned by Mr. Vance on the 'soul' of a bonsai...If you have not read the article, you owe it to yourself to do so...While many good points were made in the article, the most important thing I gleaned from my first reading [there will be others], was his observation on looking at your trees as if they were 'yamadori'...Most collected material has features that are openly breaking the 'accepted guidelines' of good bonsai, and many of these features have grown into the material for so many years that it is virtually impossible to do anything but accept and use the feature...Mr. Vance made mention in his article about going back and looking at some of his trees he has spent many years working on and 'viewing' at it as yamadori material ready to be styled and given a direction...This is indeed admirable...

One of the most difficult things to learn in my opinion is to 'read your material'...Developing the techniques needed to develop the best characteristics in a tree can be 'taught' or learned through practice, but learning to see the best use of the material is not as easy to teach...

Most of what I consider to be my best material has either been collected or has been given to me because it 'lacked' an accepted direction or design...Some of the material in my garden has indeed been purchased at 'landscape' nurseries, because I thought at least I could see a good possible bonsai in the material...I too have been through the process of 'killing' quite a few trees over the course of years...Some good stock and some bad ones...I have not been blessed with the option to work with 'expensive stock', but on the other hand I really think I am better off for that, and truly believe my collection [less than 4 years in the process of rebuilding] is better for it too...

Mr. Jose Luis from Puerto Rico made this statement on the IBC forum, and it says a lot, I think, about the point I have attempted to make here...
"Rules in bonsai are basic guidelines to help people learn the elementary principles in art, like for example, three dimensionality. Adhering oneself to these strict principles, which i consider guidelines, is like castrating the art without reason. I have seen too many trees that do not adhere to the so called "Japanese" aesthetics ruined by force"

Regards
Behr

 

[Tachigi]

That's not the hard way, as I define the hard way having to make it by yourself and try to learn from books and magazines

Your right Vance, my definition is different. I prefer, when working on something, to try and work intelligently since all jobs have a finite period of time. I try to bring all the resources available to me into play, books, magazines, teachers, past experience. When you have your nose to the grindstone and your only producing mediocre results. The grindstone tends to get a bit hot on the ole schnoz.

Not everyone has the opportunity, funds or time to do these kinds of programs with these people. I don't think it is fair to suggest that they should. Not everyone has the resources to go to a University but they should. What they should does not always line up with the reality of what they can.

First off, I'm not suggesting they should. As I stated "that is each person's decision". I guess it boils down to the level of commitment one wants to take and finding away to make it happen.

Last time I checked a college education was available to anyone that wanted it through scholarships, grants, student loans, G.I. Bill etc. . Do these options exist for our world of bonsai? Possibly in microscopic quantities. I know it wasn't for me and for some others that pursued the avenues of instruction. The people that didn't have the financial resourses, including myself, to take on the additional financial burden found away. For myself that was to take on a second job to pay for the instruction. Others did same or found different ways ( always made me wonder about the rash of hold ups at the 7-11)

 

[Chris Johnston]

This is going to be a much shorter response than I had intended, since the site timed me out while I was composing it and I lost it.

Will, you did nothing more than set up straw men to knock down. No one suggested that people buy stock beyond their means or talent. No one suggested that preworked bonsai stock was the only way to go.

I do not believe that prebonsai nursery stock is the only or even best way to practice bonsai, I just think it's better than regular nursery stock because it obviates the need to spend so much time fixing bad roots or overcoming a lack of movement or whatever. Remember that yamadori came first. My guess is that Americans first started using nursery material for only one reason: there was really nothing else available. Especially here in the midwest where we have no mountains for juniper or pine, or swamps for buttonwood or bald cypress, collecting is reduced to some bare probables and urban collecting, which I have done and enjoyed.

There are a great many ways to go about doing bonsai. We have a retired doctor in the local club who buys workshop trees, or has in the past, and basically refines them through the years. We have another doctor who used to collect some of the finest trees in the U.S. and not display them. Some of them have gone on to the Huntington collection and Golden State and perhaps other great collections. Some of us have gone to the mountains to collect, a 12 hour drive and a written permission slip from the National Forest Service which was pretty much ended when the wildfires in Colorado rained on our parade.

Others, and I think I fall into the same situation as Mr. Vance here, have learned the things we know in a slightly different manner [ie: books, observations, and mostly 'trial and error']...I don't read the posts at AoB daily but instead catch up about once a week...Today I had the extreme pleasure to read the article penned by Mr. Vance on the 'soul' of a bonsai...If you have not read the article, you owe it to yourself to do so...While many good points were made in the article, the most important thing I gleaned from my first reading [there will be others], was his observation on looking at your trees as if they were 'yamadori'...Most collected material has features that are openly breaking the 'accepted guidelines' of good bonsai, and many of these features have grown into the material for so many years that it is virtually impossible to do anything but accept and use the feature...Mr. Vance made mention in his article about going back and looking at some of his trees he has spent many years working on and 'viewing' at it as yamadori material ready to be styled and given a direction...This is indeed admirable...

Regards
Behr

I read this thread at Art of Bonsai about six or seven times in response to your comment, Behr. Vance, this is perhaps the most thoughtful post I have ever read on any forum. You really made me think. I'm not much for wabi and sabi because no one has ever satisfactorily explained them to me, most just parrot what Herb Gustafson or someone wrote about them. But your explanation of "kami" made me think.

Then I read and reread the paragraph Behr paraphrased. You have opened my eyes just a little wider. Right now in my collection are prebonsai stock I am working on (with the last two years being a painful exception to the work part) and a few collected trees, as well as seedlings I have been growing myself. But to look at nursery stock as if it were yamadori...well I might just have to go nursery diving this spring. Don't know that I will pick anything up, but it could happen.

Vance, I know we have had our difficulties, fed by both of us. For my part, I am sorry I ever let myself get out of control in those disputations. But they have never been about what you have accomplished so far in your bonsai adventure. I disagree with certain old school attitudes you promulgate, and this is one of them. But no one has looked down on you because you haven't studied with a master. That is entirely your own construct. I won't try to psychoanalyze it. My difficulty with your position is not the use of nursery material, I have only made one simple point: that it's wrong to suggest that using cheap nursery stock is the best way to learn and practice bonsai. Doing so limits you in so many ways. Personally, I'd love to see what you could do with a really fine piece of yamadori. I think you would quickly eclipse anything you have produced so far. Just my opinion.

 

[Anonymous User]

Will, you did nothing more than set up straw men to knock down. No one suggested that people buy stock beyond their means or talent. No one suggested that preworked bonsai stock was the only way to go.

Nor did I say that anyone here suggested it. The point I was making and the point I still stand by is that the origin of the stock makes absolutely no difference what-so-ever. It is the quality of the stock that counts. To suggest that nursery material is inferior simply because of where it was purchased, makes no sense at all.

I also think it is a mistake to recommend expensive stock to a beginner, someone who hasn't even mastered basic techniques needed to make a bonsai thrive and not die after a couple of years. Advanced stock can teach refinement, cheap stock can teach the skills needed to bring the advanced stock to such a stage.

Just my thoughts, for what they are worth,


Will