Hobbyist only

[Jon Chown]

Yes, an interesting debate with no mud slinging or name calling – I’m impressed.

We could argue back and forth for ever as to where ‘good stock’ should be purchased, for that matter we could argue for ever as to exactly what represents ‘good stock’.

I believe that Bonsainut has the best understanding of the economics of bonsai with his post that I repeat here

We could probably differentiate bonsai customers into different markets:

1) The "impulse buyer" who sees a bonsai somewhere (anywhere) and decides then and there to buy it, with no idea of care, etc. They often start with a mallsai. In some cases they progress to another level in the hobby, but for the vast majority their entire experience is one or maybe two trees at this level. Most trees die shortly after being purchased.

2) The "beginner" who enters the industry and has a curious and inquisitive mind. They read books, seek out information, and start to learn enough about bonsai that they can keep trees alive. They may seek out less expensive trees online, visit bonsai nurseries, etc. They do not have the skill necessary to maintain difficult trees like pines, and may become discouraged and leave the hobby because they cannot achieve the success they see in bonsai books and magazines.

3) The "hobbyist" who makes the big leap and starts taking bonsai classes and potentially joins a bonsai society. They realize that 99% of the time spent in stages (1) and (2) above was wasted. They start obtaining and training better quality trees, including some that might be show quality. With success, they buy more difficult and expensive trees, and start to make the switch from lots of cheap trees to few expensive trees.

4) The "enthusiast" who spends a lot of time at stage (3) and goes one step further. They seek out training / instruction from numerous sources. They own a library of books and subscribe to magazines. They can refer to back-issue articles. They understand and utilize advanced bonsai techniques, including a fair amount of propagation. They start supplementing their collection of lots of expensive trees with lots of cheap trees that they are trying to "grow out" quickly. Their backyard looks like a small bonsai center.

5) The "professional" who spends time at stage (4) and decides that they might actually be able to make a living at their hobby. For the fortunate few, they actually can. For the unfortunate majority, they struggle with the fact that the MAJORITY of the market for bonsai in the U.S. are the stage (1) and stage (2) people above who do not require, nor appreciate, stage 4 material

I would like to add another level here.

6. ‘Artist’ (who could also be a 5) One who has learnt to rid him/herself of the time wasting crap and diligently perseveres to refine the quality stock. Likes to share knowledge with other artists that he/she respects.


So perhaps the garden centers are the place for the hundreds of people introduced to the hobby by purchasing a mallsai or the thousands of ‘beginners’ who become inspired and seek to learn and are persistent enough to advance to levels 4, 5 or even the very few who gain the understanding and competency of level 6, by then they will be able to recognize ‘good stock’ and indeed know where to purchase or collect it.

Jon

 

[bonsai barry]

Adding "Artist" was a good call, Jon. It's what many of us aspire to.

 

[No it's not...]

"Ah, so we back pedal now? This issue was using "the best" material advailable at the time, certainly a board was not, as there were better canvas, he used them in some of his other paintings."

Linen-canvas was not popular until about 100 years later, or late 16th century. In fact, by 1640 Rembrandt was still painting a lot on panel even though he was the most successful painter in Amsterdam, but maybe he was just a cheap ole sob. The only advantage canvas has over panel is that moving large paintings is easier if they are painted on canvas. Thin wood starting to show signs of deterioration after 500 YEARS is pretty great material to me. Put some wood outside and do the same with linen and we'll see what deteriorates faster...

By the way, maybe you can find some paintings that Da Vinci did on canvas but if you do some research you'll se that the ones painted on panel greatly outnumbers the ones painted on canvas.

What I meant by preparation, I meant the way one prepares the canvas or panel. Usually gesso.

"The 17th century was not set as a disclaimer"

If you read back you'll see that I said that an oil painting deteriorates within i decade if done with poor technique and bad material. I was actually cutting you some slack when I said the 17th century. Two restorations in 500 years is itself a proof of excellent material.

"Hmm, seems even the old man made mistakes, certainly not the best material to paint on and not the best way to try it. First a board and then on a dry plaster wall? Good thing he had talent."

Don't blame the Carrara marble for cracking if you hit it with a bulldozer...

I guess you just missed out on a kidney in mint condition, I should charge you though for the free art history lessons...

 

[Tachigi]

I guess you just missed out on a kidney in mint condition, I should charge you though for the free art history lessons...

OMAN .... fuel to the fire anyone?

 

[No it's not...]

There no fire! It's just me being cocky and continuing the sillyness about the kidney stuff...

Sorry for hijacking the thread and being so off topic, now and before!

 

[bonsai barry]

Yes, an interesting debate with no mud slinging or name calling – I’m impressed.


Jon

No name calling or mud slinging? You call this a forum? Send me a PM when things get exciting!

 

[Anonymous User]

I should charge you though for the free art history lessons...

Ditto



Will

 

[jferrier]

Very interesting thread..well at least until the oil painting sidetrack. I got into bonsai 5 years ago when I was 30. I did not have the time or especially the money to train under a bonsai master, so I read as many books as I can and I search the internet daily, and I get my hands on learning and experience from the trials and errors of trying the techniques I read about for myself. So hoping that I have some years left to practice, I felt I could get the most value out of practicing on a dozen seedlings rather than one nice pre-bonsai stock. If I were 60, I probably would have gone about it differently and purchased some better material. My first tree was a pinion pine sapling dug from a friends ranch. Its still not much to look at, but I have at least learned over the past 5 years how to reduce the needles on it. My point is, that while a nursery tree may not have as much potential as pre-bonsai stock, it gives one the opportunity to practice, and experiment, and make bold moves without fear of destroying a $150 or more investment.
I have to agree with Will here. To me, its really about the artists talents. A tree's costs is simply a result of the time and expense and profit put into it. The question is do you want to pay someone else for their time and labor and profit, or would you rather do it yourself? Either way you can still end up with something really amazing.

 

[jferrier]

Sorry to resurrect the dead.

 

[John Ruger]

You know what? you make the perfect point. I remember buying the "bonsai" at the local garden center (Juniper???)...it died. The, what I call, "road-kill" from the guy who sells the stuff at holiday season...it died too. I only have a couple of bonsai, Korean Hornbeam, Nagasaki Crabapple, European Oak, and waiting on a Mayumi. You know, there are the purest who cultivate from seed, to those who purchase the specimen in the thousands of dollars, but the bottom line is, learn as much as you can, do no harm to the tree, and enjoy what you practice.

 

[Tachigi]

I did not have the time or especially the money to train under a bonsai master, so I read as many books as I can and I search the internet daily, and I get my hands on learning and experience from the trials and errors of trying the techniques I read about for myself. So hoping that I have some years left to practice, I felt I could get the most value out of practicing on a dozen seedlings rather than one nice pre-bonsai stock. If I were 60, I probably would have gone about it differently and purchased some better material .... My point is, that while a nursery tree may not have as much potential as pre-bonsai stock, it gives one the opportunity to practice, and experiment, and make bold moves without fear of destroying a $150 or more investment.

I have to agree with Will here. To me, its really about the artists talents. A tree's costs is simply a result of the time and expense and profit put into it. The question is do you want to pay someone else for their time and labor and profit, or would you rather do it yourself? Either way you can still end up with something really amazing.

I find your statement perplexing. Comparing seedlings to pre-bonsai and obtaining the same result is like comparing building a paper airplane to building a 747. Two totally different things and two very different approaches. Also nursery trees and seedlings are two different animals. Nursery material can and will rival some pre-bonsai stock...trick is looking in the right place at the right time and not settling for something when you can't find "the" tree.

As for paying large amounts of money for trees I have two thoughts. A higher priced tree that is worthy of its price tag will raise your game to a new level. It will make you slow down and be very, very certain your doing your right thing, and yes its not for the faint of heart or for some one not serious about bonsai.

The second thing is that your not only paying for someones time and labor...but for their talent as well. Something you placed a high priority on. If one can't afford classes with a professional, one can still glean a lot if they are observant of the material developed...a poor man's master class if you will.

I'm not saying anyone's individual choice is wrong as how they want to progress in the art/hobby. Each to their own. Just don't compare seedlings with pre-bonsai and then say with out training and with a hit or miss approach you can produce the same thing. Most full time growers in the US have had a formal training in one form or another ... there dedication and passion is surely worth something while giving benefit and value.

 

[the3rdon]

I find your statement perplexing. Comparing seedlings to pre-bonsai and obtaining the same result is like comparing building a paper airplane to building a 747. Two totally different things and two very different approaches. Also nursery trees and seedlings are two different animals. Nursery material can and will rival some pre-bonsai stock...trick is looking in the right place at the right time and not settling for something when you can't find "the" tree.

As for paying large amounts of money for trees I have two thoughts. A higher priced tree that is worthy of its price tag will raise your game to a new level. It will make you slow down and be very, very certain your doing your right thing, and yes its not for the faint of heart or for some one not serious about bonsai.

The second thing is that your not only paying for someones time and labor...but for their talent as well. Something you placed a high priority on. If one can't afford classes with a professional, one can still glean a lot if they are observant of the material developed...a poor man's master class if you will.

I'm not saying anyone's individual choice is wrong as how they want to progress in the art/hobby. Each to their own. Just don't compare seedlings with pre-bonsai and then say with out training and with a hit or miss approach you can produce the same thing. Most full time growers in the US have had a formal training in one form or another ... there dedication and passion is surely worth something while giving benefit and value.

I would consider myself a prime example of your first point Tom.. I Have bought a couple of more expensive trees and it has definitely made me want to learn more and very cautious of doing exactly what needs to be done to improve that tree that I worked hard to pay for and they put so much effort into getting it to the point that it's at..

Don Hanson

 

[rockm]

i have found that people who say that not buying more expensive quality stock usually have not worked with more expensive quality stock. "Expensive" by the way, doesn't necessarily equal "better"--the price has to match the quality.

Working with a plant like a seedling or nursery tree into a bonsai is like driving a Dodge Neon. It's fine. It moves down the road. It sometimes overheats, the seats are worn through and you can see the road through the floorboards after a few years, but hey, it rolls...

This can be perfectly adequate--until you work with quality purpose grown or collected material. The new car handles better than that Neon, It doesn't break down or overheat, the seats don't squeak and it doesn't feel like a dime store version of a car.

Just sayin...

 

[cquinn]

i have found that people who say that not buying more expensive quality stock usually have not worked with more expensive quality stock. "Expensive" by the way, doesn't necessarily equal "better"--the price has to match the quality.

Working with a plant like a seedling or nursery tree into a bonsai is like driving a Dodge Neon. It's fine. It moves down the road. It sometimes overheats, the seats are worn through and you can see the road through the floorboards after a few years, but hey, it rolls...

This can be perfectly adequate--until you work with quality purpose grown or collected material. The new car handles better than that Neon, It doesn't break down or overheat, the seats don't squeak and it doesn't feel like a dime store version of a car.

Just sayin...

That's a pretty good explanation. I didn't realize what bonsai really was until I started learning from Warren Hill, and saw his trees. Most people who aren't exposed to real bonsai, don't know that after you finally get a base, trunk, and basic branching that you're still looking at another 10 yrs of refinement. I'm not talking about shohin or chuhin, but 25 inch to 48 inch bonsai. It takes about 10 yrs to get a good trunk and base growing in the ground (talking 4 inch + trunks). Another 10 to get the scars totally healed, and good solid basic branching. Another 10 to get awsome refinement. This taking into account going slow by easing off on repotting years depending on the species. So 30 years for a good bonsai is about right starting from seed. Ofcourse Black Pine take about 50 yrs before the trunk looks excellent. I'm not talking about comprising here. I'm talking about the quality one sees in Japan. There are no short cuts, that's why it's beneficail to cough up the money and buy good stock. The Japanese nurserymen go on buying trips all the time. Kimura buys his stock. It's hard to grow a 250 yr old tree from seed. I respect everything that Vance Wood does, and I really like his work, but one can't compare a nursery mugo with an aged and fissued Black Pine. They are on two totally different levels. It's not because one is a Japanese species either. When side by side the Black Pine exudes power and timelessness.

 

[cbobgo]

Wow, this is a blast from the past! It was fun re-reading all of that.

- bob