HorseloverFat

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(((WARNING! UNDEVELOPED UNSUITABLE SPECIMENS FOLLOW, proceed at your own risk

Alrighty... let’s get right down to business.

This idea has been in “embryo”ever since the informative discussion on the “most difficult tree to bonsai” thread.

Since I have been making threads on a few of my trees, I figured I’d just sneak in my oddest of balls, so to speak.

Without further gum-flappery, here they are. My NON-ideal performers. (Well at least the ones I am documenting) :)

Acer Nigrum (Black maple) -collected in landscaping gravel Fall 2019) (He’s got a little cinnamon on his leaves there...whoops)

1754719A-3F2B-4540-B451-6B3DB0283C87.jpeg


Acer Saccharum - Sugar Maple
(Center. Collected in Door County in a Thuja forest, strangely enough)

AA0B122F-8743-495E-AD72-0DCF938865AE.jpeg

Ribes Americanum - Black Currant...collected Feb 2020... ‘nuff said.

A5C1CF89-11AC-4B8C-92CD-B9B9664BDBF6.jpeg

Soloneceae - Nightshade.. ALSO collected February 2020.

B0C1C914-9121-42F3-B5D3-DF9DBA1E25B6.jpeg

Populas Aigeiros - Cottonwood collected March 2020

504A169B-11F0-4720-9307-FCD3D00CFB64.jpeg

Viburnum Lentago - NannyBerry “Fran” Collected April 2020

DD663A46-74D9-4F6F-8E89-2EE9D06257A3.jpeg

Viburnum Opulus - European Cranberry - Collected April 2020

D71D7748-1A40-460A-9E0B-89D3D1F66992.jpeg

Haha and a Geranium Maculatem - Wild Geranium - collected April2020

77A96622-6388-4BB2-AD68-7933E7579F3A.jpeg
 

Woocash

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(((WARNING! UNDEVELOPED UNSUITABLE SPECIMENS FOLLOW, proceed at your own risk

Alrighty... let’s get right down to business.

This idea has been in “embryo”ever since the informative discussion on the “most difficult tree to bonsai” thread.

Since I have been making threads on a few of my trees, I figured I’d just sneak in my oddest of balls, so to speak.

Without further gum-flappery, here they are. My NON-ideal performers. (Well at least the ones I am documenting) :)

Acer Nigrum (Black maple) -collected in landscaping gravel Fall 2019) (He’s got a little cinnamon on his leaves there...whoops)

View attachment 305049


Acer Saccharum - Sugar Maple
(Center. Collected in Door County in a Thuja forest, strangely enough)

View attachment 305047

Ribes Americanum - Black Currant...collected Feb 2020... ‘nuff said.

View attachment 305053

Soloneceae - Nightshade.. ALSO collected February 2020.

View attachment 305052

Populas Aigeiros - Cottonwood collected March 2020

View attachment 305051

Viburnum Lentago - NannyBerry “Fran” Collected April 2020

View attachment 305048

Viburnum Opulus - European Cranberry - Collected April 2020

View attachment 305050

Haha and a Geranium Maculatem - Wild Geranium - collected April2020

View attachment 305054
Nice. I can see why you guys would call the viburnum a European cranberry, over here it’s known as a guelder rose. I think the name comes from Gelderland in the Netherlands. Gawd knows where the rose bit is from though. I nearly collected one this winter but I was worried the growth habit was a bit too elder like. Nice plants though, but don’t eat too many berries unless you particularly enjoy time in your water closet!
 

HorseloverFat

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Nice. I can see why you guys would call the viburnum a European cranberry, over here it’s known as a guelder rose. I think the name comes from Gelderland in the Netherlands. Gawd knows where the rose bit is from though. I nearly collected one this winter but I was worried the growth habit was a bit too elder like. Nice plants though, but don’t eat too many berries unless you particularly enjoy time in your water closet!

Common and local name changes via-geography and demographic is a most interesting discussion.

I came across “Guelder Rose” in my research, but had never heard it BEFORE then.. Up here, in the sticks, they are actually most commonly referred to as viburnums.
Hehe
 
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Woocash

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Common and local name changes via-geography and demographic is a most interesting discussion.

I came across “Guelder Rose” in my research, but had never heard it BEFORE then.. Up here, in the sticks, they are actually most commonly referred to as viburnums.
Hehe
I like all that stuff as well. It’s like your sycamore and our sycamore pretty much meaning the same thing in Latin in a round about way. Or at least our sycamore, Acer Pseudoplatanus and London plane, Platanus Acerifolia. Then you guys name Platanus Occidentalis sycamore, which surely goes back to reminding the forefathers of the European sycamore as well.
 

HorseloverFat

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I like all that stuff as well. It’s like your sycamore and our sycamore pretty much meaning the same thing in Latin in a round about way. Or at least our sycamore, Acer Pseudoplatanus and London plane, Platanus Acerifolia. Then you guys name Platanus Occidentalis sycamore, which surely goes back to reminding the forefathers of the European sycamore as well.

Yes.. the prunus species has deliciously enormous slew of variants worldwide.. like the idea of “apricot” hehehe.
 

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Haha!!! Actually needed a little more diameter simply to accommodate the larger rootball gathered in collection.. I still have lots of yogurt containers :) :) :)
 

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So, a little back-story on my next entry..

An acquaintance of mine was planning on expanding his pond next spring.. armed with the knowledge that I’m the local “tree guy”, he asked if I would like to come and, “Get this sonovabyych outta here!”... When I arrived, nothing special.. black walnut.. uuuuuuhg.. but it had some age to the trunk and visibly muscular nebari.... I said I’d take it once we agreed that I could take it in the Fall....

Well... needless to say, he had a little more time on his hands this summer than he had previously anticipated.. So I received a call this morning that it was “now or never”...

Knowing beforehand that the shallow (but beefy laterally) root mass could EASILY be accessed by rolling some large rocks and jostling the pond bottom is the ONLY reason I even attempted this... so we’ll see.. If it survives... it has 100 years (for this NONtest) to recover. 😆😆😆

Juglans Nigra 1

8F049635-800B-4C23-B4ED-C61C5878482A.jpeg8A6287E8-4866-4DC2-9FAB-2A7404FFA14C.jpeg

4A85ABA0-B370-43A4-A653-82647203E747.jpeg65B5FCBD-0D3D-4585-9EFC-6F72B0E1D705.jpeg
(pay no mind to my sunburnt seedlings) 🤦🏼‍♂️
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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So many projects, so little time. Man, you are amassing a huge number of sticks in pots. Not being derogative, but most of what you collected is too young to be anything more than Sticks in Pots. Once you burn off some of your energy, start focusing on collecting trees with caliper to their trunks. You need at least 2 inch diameter trunks for even the smallest of bonsai. Look for collectable trees between 2 and 6 inches in diameter. That is were the "gold" will be. All the "skinny stuff" will need many years of growing to get the caliper you need, or you will eventually realize you need.

The black currents, Ribes, are not that bad for bonsai. They are difficult to get them to develop caliper to their trunks, but they are not bad, when used, they are often used for shohin or as kusamono.

The viburnums, could work. I'll be curious to see what you do with them. Actually all your projects I have an interest in seeing how they do. While in an effort to save people time and energy I will point out what species are good for bonsai and what species are poor choices, you understand the issue, and want to try anyway. So I would like to see you succeed.

While you are scouting, look for Carpinus caroliniana and or Ostrya virginiana. The hornbeams are great for bonsai. I usually find Carpinus on the wetter end of a hill that has beech. The hop flowered hornbeam, Ostrya is usually found in more exposed, slightly dryer habitats than beech and Carpinus. They are excellent as bonsai and should be in your local woods.

Also, embrace elms. Any elm you collect can become bonsai.

Lindera benzoin - spicebush. K Murata has a lovely photo of his Japanese Lindera, and I know Lindera benzoin grows in your woods.

Keep an eye out for large caliper trunks of Virginia creeper, Parthenocissus. You might even be able to make bonsai from Ceanothus - New Jersey tea. Don't forget hemlock, eastern hemlock, Tsuga canadensis. And white spruce, the normal form of Picea glauca, (not the dwarf Alberta spruce). And you are far enough north to have Jack pines. Look for Jack pines.

There are many species suitable for bonsai in your woods. Seek them out.
 

HorseloverFat

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So many projects, so little time. Man, you are amassing a huge number of sticks in pots. Not being derogative, but most of what you collected is too young to be anything more than Sticks in Pots. Once you burn off some of your energy, start focusing on collecting trees with caliper to their trunks. You need at least 2 inch diameter trunks for even the smallest of bonsai. Look for collectable trees between 2 and 6 inches in diameter. That is were the "gold" will be. All the "skinny stuff" will need many years of growing to get the caliper you need, or you will eventually realize you need.

The black currents, Ribes, are not that bad for bonsai. They are difficult to get them to develop caliper to their trunks, but they are not bad, when used, they are often used for shohin or as kusamono.

The viburnums, could work. I'll be curious to see what you do with them. Actually all your projects I have an interest in seeing how they do. While in an effort to save people time and energy I will point out what species are good for bonsai and what species are poor choices, you understand the issue, and want to try anyway. So I would like to see you succeed.

While you are scouting, look for Carpinus caroliniana and or Ostrya virginiana. The hornbeams are great for bonsai. I usually find Carpinus on the wetter end of a hill that has beech. The hop flowered hornbeam, Ostrya is usually found in more exposed, slightly dryer habitats than beech and Carpinus. They are excellent as bonsai and should be in your local woods.

Also, embrace elms. Any elm you collect can become bonsai.

Lindera benzoin - spicebush. K Murata has a lovely photo of his Japanese Lindera, and I know Lindera benzoin grows in your woods.

Keep an eye out for large caliper trunks of Virginia creeper, Parthenocissus. You might even be able to make bonsai from Ceanothus - New Jersey tea. Don't forget hemlock, eastern hemlock, Tsuga canadensis. And white spruce, the normal form of Picea glauca, (not the dwarf Alberta spruce). And you are far enough north to have Jack pines. Look for Jack pines.

There are many species suitable for bonsai in your woods. Seek them out.

I totally understand! I have been slowly coming to these realizations.... it’s an “eagerness” that will be hard to let go of.
 

HorseloverFat

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So many projects, so little time. Man, you are amassing a huge number of sticks in pots. Not being derogative, but most of what you collected is too young to be anything more than Sticks in Pots. Once you burn off some of your energy, start focusing on collecting trees with caliper to their trunks. You need at least 2 inch diameter trunks for even the smallest of bonsai. Look for collectable trees between 2 and 6 inches in diameter. That is were the "gold" will be. All the "skinny stuff" will need many years of growing to get the caliper you need, or you will eventually realize you need.

The black currents, Ribes, are not that bad for bonsai. They are difficult to get them to develop caliper to their trunks, but they are not bad, when used, they are often used for shohin or as kusamono.

The viburnums, could work. I'll be curious to see what you do with them. Actually all your projects I have an interest in seeing how they do. While in an effort to save people time and energy I will point out what species are good for bonsai and what species are poor choices, you understand the issue, and want to try anyway. So I would like to see you succeed.

While you are scouting, look for Carpinus caroliniana and or Ostrya virginiana. The hornbeams are great for bonsai. I usually find Carpinus on the wetter end of a hill that has beech. The hop flowered hornbeam, Ostrya is usually found in more exposed, slightly dryer habitats than beech and Carpinus. They are excellent as bonsai and should be in your local woods.

Also, embrace elms. Any elm you collect can become bonsai.

Lindera benzoin - spicebush. K Murata has a lovely photo of his Japanese Lindera, and I know Lindera benzoin grows in your woods.

Keep an eye out for large caliper trunks of Virginia creeper, Parthenocissus. You might even be able to make bonsai from Ceanothus - New Jersey tea. Don't forget hemlock, eastern hemlock, Tsuga canadensis. And white spruce, the normal form of Picea glauca, (not the dwarf Alberta spruce). And you are far enough north to have Jack pines. Look for Jack pines.

There are many species suitable for bonsai in your woods. Seek them out.

It’s hard for me to take the “magic” or curious, experimental, creative spirit out of my actions.. But I’m trying :)
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I find collecting an elm just as "magical" as collecting a walnut. Both activities require imagination, and "seeing" a future tree where there is only a shrub. The great thing about an elm is I know the leaves will reduce, the internode lengths will be short enough to work with and all in all it will make a nice bonsai. With the walnut, there is a long list of "faults" that I would have to deal with in addition to the normal creative process.

What I'm saying is I'm not trying to limit your imagination, just point your energies to projects that have a higher chance of turning out to the good. Look for hawthorns and crab apples, heck even feral culinary apples make decent bonsai. Look for Service Berry, or Saskatoons, genus Amelanchier. They make fantastic shohin & medium size bonsai. Every county in Wisconsin has a species of Amelanchier native to it.
 

HorseloverFat

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I find collecting an elm just as "magical" as collecting a walnut. Both activities require imagination, and "seeing" a future tree where there is only a shrub. The great thing about an elm is I know the leaves will reduce, the internode lengths will be short enough to work with and all in all it will make a nice bonsai. With the walnut, there is a long list of "faults" that I would have to deal with in addition to the normal creative process.

What I'm saying is I'm not trying to limit your imagination, just point your energies to projects that have a higher chance of turning out to the good. Look for hawthorns and crab apples, heck even feral culinary apples make decent bonsai. Look for Service Berry, or Saskatoons, genus Amelanchier. They make fantastic shohin & medium size bonsai. Every county in Wisconsin has a species of Amelanchier native to it.

Thank you! I actually have two serviceberries that i have “marked” for fall... ones that lived hard, but are thriving now.... with the trunk to prove it. I also have an American Elm.. only like 1 1/2” though.. not worth it’s own thread, but also not NONideal. 😆 I like Elaeagnus ALOT.. and have found a few RUSSIAN olives (sizeable specimens) also “marked”.... the same with the prairie crabapples.

Almost like I know this NOW.. but still HAVE all the trees from my overzealous first collecting season.. I believe I will have a different approach to collecting this fall and coming spring. (Given all I’ve learned/was taught.)

There are also a few other species I was considering, as I have located worthy-appearing yamadori, and would GREATLY appreciate your “take”.

(Prunus)
Black, Pin, Choke and sour cherry?

Berberis Thunbergi - (with gloves) ?

What about our native Rosas? I really enjoy them, but it seems only a few have decent structure.

Also, speaking of creepers and the like.. what about grape woodbines?

Sorry, I didn’t mean to just ask a bunch of other amateurish questions... Still trying to burn off that energy. 😁
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I'm going to answer your questions in 2 parts. First the Cherries.

black cherry = Prunus serotina - per @rockm - they are a pain in the ass. Read this thread below. I do think they will make better bonsai than a walnut tree, but that "ain't saying much". They are in category that Pinus strobus, eastern white pine is in. You will put in years of work and end up being frustrated.


in this thread GrimLore has some interesting culture tips.

Choke cherry - Prunus virginiana - I suspect has all the issues of Prunus serotina, but because they are shrubbier, they will probably be even more difficult. Though, again, better choice than walnut or catalpa. Here is a thread I found

Sour cherry - Prunus cerasus - this is the culinary sour cherry planted in orchards for fruit. I think this is certainly a better choice for bonsai than the choke cherry or the black cherry. Using search I did not Find any threads on it directly. A couple of the threads mention it tangentially. Walter Paul has a Prunus cerasifera. Prunus cerasus is a parent of Prunus x yoshino cherry which is used in Japan for bonsai. I think Prunus cerasus has much more potential for bonsai than the choke cherry or black cherry.



Here are mentions of a couple of other cherries below.
Use the search function for BNut, you can turn up all sorts of information.




 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Berberis thunbergii - Barberry Bush. These are regularly, well at least occasionally used for bonsai, some turn out pretty darn good. Hans van Meer, out of the Netherlands, I believe he had a fabulous one. You will have to search his blog, My recollection is from before 2016. Another Is Ed van der Reek, he has a berberis, search for his blog too.
First 2 photos are Ed Van der Reek's Berberis
The last 2 photos are mame Berberis by Haruyoshi.
berberis-EdVanderReek (2019_10_20 19_42_16 UTC).jpg berberis-EdVanderReek2 (2019_10_20 19_42_16 UTC).jpg

berberis-Haruyoshi-FB2014a (2019_10_20 19_42_16 UTC).jpg Berberis-Haruyoshi-FB2014c (2019_10_20 19_42_16 UTC).jpg
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Native rose and garden roses. Both are occasionally used for bonsai. The key issue is they tend to produce canes, that die back every year. The only trunk that forms tends to form underground, as part of the root system. If you can find a 40 year old multiflora rose, or a garden rose on its own roots with some serious age on it, they make great bonsai. In spring you let them grow out to bloom, then let the once a year blooming roses pretty much run wild all summer. Then in autumn, or late winter, all the wild growth, get pruned back to an inch or two of additional length. Then spring they are allowed to run wild to bloom.

For continuous and re-blooming roses, you let new growth keep extending until it blooms. Then cut back the growths that bloomed (or about half the canes), then the second flush will bloom on the canes that had not bloomed on the first flush. Late winter everything gets cut back to shape. Search BNut threads started by Owen Reich, he has a fantastic swamp rose - Rosa palustris, with a trunk that looks thicker than my wrist.

Grape Woodbine - what is that? Got a scientific name, as the common name is confusing.

Wild grapes, genus Vitis, several different species & culinary grape (also genus Vitis) all have been regularly used for bonsai. Just use the BNut search tool and search for "Grape". You will get a dozen or more.
 
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