Hot Water Scarification? JWP? Hornbeam?

[Mike Hennigan]

Hey all, just got some seeds in from Sheffield’s. I’m starting the Japanese white pine and hornbeam off today since they have the longest stratification requirements. Instructions for scarification are to soak in water for 24 hours. Doesn’t say anything about heat. Isn’t the standard water method of scarification for anything with a hard seed coat to use near boiling water? And then let soak 24 hours? I’m struggling to see how room temperate water will weaken the seed coat.

I want to use the hot water treatment as I want to increase germination as much as possible, but am wondering if this is not ok for either of these species. Please help!

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Or would something like sandpaper and then soak in room temperature water be better? Don’t have the time to treat all my seeds like this, but the white pine are big enough they would be easy to hit with sandpaper.

 

[0soyoung]

Lodgepole pine cones, for example, require heat to open and release the seed - naturally they get this as a result of a fire. Lodgepole seed might need hot water scarification. AFAIK, white pines don't have this evolutionary trait.

Have you read through the 'Seed Germination' Resource? There are two supplements to this posted in the BNut Resources that you may want to peruse as well.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Lodgepole pine cones, for example, require heat to open and release the seed - naturally they get this as a result of a fire. Lodgepole seed might need hot water scarification. AFAIK, white pines don't have this evolutionary trait.

Have you read through the 'Seed Germination' Resource? There are two supplements to this posted in the BNut Resources that you may want to peruse as well.

99% of seeds scarified with hot water treatment have no connection to fire ecology. This is a standard practice for many seeds, even vegetable seeds, as far as my research has shown me. It’s just hard to find specifics for species. Will look through that, thanks.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

As far as I understand scarification can happen three different ways: physical by nicking or filing the seed coat, chemical by soaking the seeds in acid or some corrosive chemical, and thermal by using hot water... the heat makes the seed coat expand and causes some amount of fracturing upon expansion. From what I can tell, just soaking them in room temperature water does literally nothing besides make the seed wet. Or possibly signal the embryo to create enzymes that soften the seed coat, but does not cause any degree of scarification. Ok whatever, hot water here we go.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Peroxide is my scarfication go-to thing. Hot water is pretty relative, the chef I used to work with thinks boiling water is still pretty cool to the touch. I think tapwater just above body temperature is hot.
Too cool and nothing bad happens, too hot and your seeds will die for sure.

Hot water releases wax and other protective materials that would otherwise be dissolved/eaten by micro-organisms and solar heat.
A diluted peroxide solution seems to do just that, while helping the seeds coming out of dormancy due to the chemical trigger. I believe it's safer.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Peroxide is my scarfication go-to thing. Hot water is pretty relative, the chef I used to work with thinks boiling water is still pretty cool to the touch. I think tapwater just above body temperature is hot.
Too cool and nothing bad happens, too hot and your seeds will die for sure.

Hot water releases wax and other protective materials that would otherwise be dissolved/eaten by micro-organisms and solar heat.
A diluted peroxide solution seems to do just that, while helping the seeds coming out of dormancy due to the chemical trigger. I believe it's safer.

Yea just under boiling temp seems too much right? I’ve been heating water to boiling and then letting it cool until it’s still hot but my finger can handle the heat of it and then using it. Figured less chance or killing seeds that way.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Sowing instructions that came with my pseudoacacia stated 'poor boiling water on them'. So I did just that.
0 germinations in 5 months time.
When sown straight away, with zero effort, I got around 80-90% germination. Within a month.

I'm wondering how plants could survive those millions of years without boiling water being poured over their seeds every year. For some reason, it just doesn't seem right. Maybe Australian species and other plants from hot areas do need the heat. But it feels uneasy to say the least, to use that technique on plants that live (and have lived for hundreds of decades) within my own temperature range. If we had boiling water in nature, I think I would have moved long ago.
I might just get some white pine seeds and see if there's a notable difference between hot water and cold water.
As a matter of fact, I'm curious now and I ordered 120 seeds. Lol!

 

[penumbra]

Peroxide is my scarfication go-to thing. Hot water is pretty relative, the chef I used to work with thinks boiling water is still pretty cool to the touch. I think tapwater just above body temperature is hot.
Too cool and nothing bad happens, too hot and your seeds will die for sure.

Hot water releases wax and other protective materials that would otherwise be dissolved/eaten by micro-organisms and solar heat.
A diluted peroxide solution seems to do just that, while helping the seeds coming out of dormancy due to the chemical trigger. I believe it's safer.

What ratio of peroxide do you use?

 

[Soldano666]

I soak em for 48 hr. Crabs, Scots amur maple and Mugo. I failed with hornbeam and hawthorn. I think I had bad seeds tho they were the only ones I ordered. Should have gone thru shceffs. The rest were collected local by me

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I don’t know if mother nature is pouring peroxide over seeds either, but hey whatever works! Lol.

 

[coh]

What type of hornbeam are you going to grow? I started some European hornbeam seeds about 4 years ago. I don't remember
the exact details but I followed the "standard" recommendations pretty closely - soak in hot (not near boiling though I don't recall
the exact temp - maybe just hot tap water) water, then into damp sphagnum and into the fridge until they germinated. I did this with
both J maple and E hornbeam. Almost every maple sprouted but the success rate with the hornbeams was lower (still more than
50% though).

 

[penumbra]

I soak em for 48 hr. Crabs, Scots amur maple and Mugo. I failed with hornbeam and hawthorn. I think I had bad seeds tho they were the only ones I ordered. Should have gone thru shceffs. The rest were collected local by me

Is this pure 3% hyd per right out of the bottle or do you dilute it?

 

[Soldano666]

Straight hot water

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

What ratio of peroxide do you use?

I use a teaspoon of 3% peroxide per tea cup.
As for nature, there's a lot of peroxide going around in nature. Lots of organisms can create peroxisomes to get rid of the stuff. It's even a scientific classification tool to check for it.