How can I improve the chances this Ponderosa Yamadori will survive?

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

This is my first post to this forum and this is my first yamadori or bonsai experience. I have collected some yardadori saplings from my yard, but they have been volunteer elm and maple saplings/seedlings. Many have survived, but not all of them and they are not in bonsai soil, nor wired into training pots or styled at all other than initial cleaning. I am mostly just going to let them grow for a while longer.

Moving onto my first yamadori:

Collected 3 weeks ago in the Cascade range at about 5000 ft elevation. I am on the Eastern side of the mountains, right were the landscape changes to High Desert scrub and Juniper. I have read websites and watched videos for a couple of years now so I thought I knew what I was doing. Apparently not so much.


I got a permit from the forest service and drove up into the mountains a little bit. I ended up finding this beat up Ponderosa Pine in a cinder pit, surrounded by broken glass, trash and a shot up, burnt out car. I am fairly certain that the main trunk was removed by shooting at it.




Unfortunately, the digging didn’t go so well and I didn't get a root ball--either I did not dig deep enough or my technique was bad. As you can see in the images, it was growing in cinder.



As I was digging, what I thought of as the root ball kept falling away. By that point I was invested, so I tried to salvage the situation.



What roots it had I got wet, put into a 5 gallon bucket wrapped in a wet towel with some of the cinder soil. Once I got it home, I made my next mistake and mixed the cinder with some of my garden soil, thinking that would help keep what roots I had protected. I thought I knew better, but my brain was not quite tracking correctly.

The next day, based on a suggestion from the reddit bonsai community I repotted it into straight pumice. I wired/tied it in after the fact--apparently I had forgotten everything I had read or watched up to this point. It has been sitting in full sun ever since (but I have watered it whenever the pumice is almost dry at the roots) but now I am questioning that decision after reading on here about other's misting regimes.

Now it is starting to get yellow needles, it is also putting out candles.






Things I have learned so far:

• Just because I have read about it doesn't mean I know it (lol).
• Digging in straight cinder is not easy, and root balls do not seem to hold together in that medium.
  • I might be wrong about the second section.
• Be prepared with everything you might need before collecting.
  • I did not have a plan, other than collect a tree that day.
  • I did not have pumice or bonsai soil on hand
  • I did not pre-wire the pot and only realized how unstable it was after the fact.
• Post-care is a whole subject that I barely scratched the surface of.

Questions (so far):

• Should I move it into a space that gets a bit less sun?
  • It is starting to get hot here, and our spring rains are starting to fade out.
  • I can move it under the eaves of the south facing wall of the house, where it will get shade from the apple tree in the afternoon.
  • I can move it a bit more under the sand cherry it is in front of in the picture, where it will be a more dappled shade but still get direct morning and late afternoon sun.
• How often should it be misted? I do not have any way to set it up on a timer, but can figure that out if the BonsaiNut experts say that is best.

Any suggestions appreciated. Flame me if necessary, as long as I can learn something from it.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I think you can expect to lose some needlemass after this repot due to the lack of not getting what you say was a large root mass. I would keep it in the location that gets morning and afternoon sun until the new candles push and you see a halt to any of the collection trauma.

In a complete pumice mix, id water daily in the morning if free draining. Id mist the foliage no later than 1pm to make sure it dries before sunset. 11:30 - 1pm should help the tree retain some moisture as roots recover.

No fertilization until mid summer, imo. Then I would fertilize til about October at 1/2 strength.

Next year Id let rest completely, no work, but put in full sun. Id water daily in the morning. Id start full fertilization after the first flush hardens off / stops elongating.

Maybe others can give additional advice. The next month or two will tell you if it will live or not.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I personally would have stopped the dig and looked someplace else as soon as I would've found a lack of a proper root ball. It's rarely worth the effort to revive a tree for three years compared to.. Putting some soil back ;-)
Then again, this looks decent enough for younger trees.
Next time, try to find dandruff. If there's organic material around a tree, there's a fat chance that there's also water accumulation. Where there's water, there are roots. In barren soils like that, it can be difficult, but I prefer foresty areas over anything, because the trees can be basically pulled out with an entire root ball attached.

Some foliar loss is expected when collecting pines, it looks like those were the needles from 2 flushes ago, so last year is still on there. But it might progress! I have a scots pine sitting in the pond for shits and giggles, it's a chopped trunk with zero roots. It was sawn off of another tree. It's producing a new flush too. So new growth might not tell you everything.

We can flame you, but we've all started somewhere and I think you're showing good signs of introspection. I'd go with the comment above mine and not put them in full sun for a while. Once you've stabilized the tree, keep it as is. Don't move it too much, don't let your dog run into it, things like that. Let it relax.

And keep us posted of course if there's any expansion of the yellowing.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

I think you can expect to lose some needlemass after this repot due to the lack of not getting what you say was a large root mass. I would keep it in the location that gets morning and afternoon sun until the new candles push and you see a halt to any of the collection trauma.

In a complete pumice mix, id water daily in the morning if free draining. Id mist the foliage no later than 1pm to make sure it dries before sunset. 11:30 - 1pm should help the tree retain some moisture as roots recover.

No fertilization until mid summer, imo. Then I would fertilize til about October at 1/2 strength.

Next year Id let rest completely, no work, but put in full sun. Id water daily in the morning. Id start full fertilization after the first flush hardens off / stops elongating.

Maybe others can give additional advice. The next month or two will tell you if it will live or not.

Thanks for the advice. It is free draining, so a daily morning watering it will be and I will move it into the best spot for morning and afternoon sun. Here's hoping it survives.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

I personally would have stopped the dig and looked someplace else as soon as I would've found a lack of a proper root ball. It's rarely worth the effort to revive a tree for three years compared to.. Putting some soil back ;-)
Then again, this looks decent enough for younger trees.
Next time, try to find dandruff. If there's organic material around a tree, there's a fat chance that there's also water accumulation. Where there's water, there are roots. In barren soils like that, it can be difficult, but I prefer foresty areas over anything, because the trees can be basically pulled out with an entire root ball attached.

Some foliar loss is expected when collecting pines, it looks like those were the needles from 2 flushes ago, so last year is still on there. But it might progress! I have a scots pine sitting in the pond for shits and giggles, it's a chopped trunk with zero roots. It was sawn off of another tree. It's producing a new flush too. So new growth might not tell you everything.

We can flame you, but we've all started somewhere and I think you're showing good signs of introspection. I'd go with the comment above mine and not put them in full sun for a while. Once you've stabilized the tree, keep it as is. Don't move it too much, don't let your dog run into it, things like that. Let it relax.

And keep us posted of course if there's any expansion of the yellowing.

Next time I run into this type of issue while digging I will remember this advice and experience and probably put the soil back and move on. I will also not be looking at anything growing in straight cinder, knowing that a root ball is that difficult to keep intact.

I will need to do some reading up on how to determine which flush the needles are from, thanks for mentioning it.

Funny that you say not to let my dog run into it--she is blind and runs into things all of the time. My choice of placement has to be where she could not get near it at all.

 

[ShadyStump]

You're already smarter then I was when I started doing this as evidenced by your complete admission that you have no clue, and that you came here from reddit.
Good work!

I'm in the southern Colorado foothills, where we have comparable issues with digging trees, and after care. The geology is a bc to work with, and hot dry climate means decent after care is imperative. It's the later I always screw up.
I disagree with afternoon sun. The tree is stressed, so don't hit it too hard with the hottest sun of the day. Dappled shade in the afternoon is a better idea for climate I think.

BTW, put your general location and growing zone in your profile. It helps us help you. Local climate means EVERYTHING in the bonsai game.

If it's pushing candles, that's a good sign even if you're losing some of the old foliage for a little while. The growth hormones responsible for new root growth are made in the new top growth, and vis versa.
Don't do a single darn thing to it for at least a year!

 

[BrianBay9]

Next time you're out looking, try to find a granite ridge, or some solid rock. Pockets in a ridge will contain roots and make it easier to collect the mass you need.

 

[ShadyStump]

Next time you're out looking, try to find a granite ridge, or some solid rock. Pockets in a ridge will contain roots and make it easier to collect the mass you need.

This is the best, but you have to be crazy lucky to find it.

 

[BrianBay9]

This is the best, but you have to be crazy lucky to find it.

Yeah, I would spend 99% of my collecting time looking, 1% digging.

 

[ShadyStump]

Yeah, I would spend 99% of my collecting time looking, 1% digging.

That's about right from my experience.
Hunting yamadori is a bit like big game hunting. Be patient, be active, be strategic, be judicious. Just because you want to take the shot doesn't mean you can, and just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I disagree with afternoon sun. The tree is stressed, so don't hit it too hard with the hottest sun of the day. Dappled shade in the afternoon is a better idea for climate I think.

To clarify, this is what I meant by afternoon sun... later afternoon, not the hottest sun of the day. So.. like 4pm on or so? Basically sun from dawn til 11am and from 4pm to dusk.

 

[ShadyStump]

To clarify, this is what I meant by afternoon sun... later afternoon, not the hottest sun of the day. So.. like 4pm on or so? Basically sun from dawn til 11am and from 4pm to dusk.

That does make sense.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Good trunk to start with and thank you for rescuing tree from further destruction. Having several Ponderosas believe likely you are doing well even if just stumbling along at the moment. Blessedly seems you are succeeding in spite of some bad fortune. Keep doing as you are except Don't water foliage regularly. However IMHO foliar feeding in evening or cool days a couple times weekly might help some.

PS: against south wall is BAD idea! It will reflect Suns heat back at tree for double whammy.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

You're already smarter then I was when I started doing this as evidenced by your complete admission that you have no clue, and that you came here from reddit.
Good work!

I'm in the southern Colorado foothills, where we have comparable issues with digging trees, and after care. The geology is a bc to work with, and hot dry climate means decent after care is imperative. It's the later I always screw up.
I disagree with afternoon sun. The tree is stressed, so don't hit it too hard with the hottest sun of the day. Dappled shade in the afternoon is a better idea for climate I think.

BTW, put your general location and growing zone in your profile. It helps us help you. Local climate means EVERYTHING in the bonsai game.

If it's pushing candles, that's a good sign even if you're losing some of the old foliage for a little while. The growth hormones responsible for new root growth are made in the new top growth, and vis versa.
Don't do a single darn thing to it for at least a year!

Thanks Shady. The tree is now in a place where it gets morning and late afternoon sun, as recommended by you and @Orion_metalhead suggested.

I also added my details in my profile, thanks for mentioning it.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

Good trunk to start with and thank you for rescuing tree from further destruction. Having several Ponderosas believe likely you are doing well even if just stumbling along at the moment. Blessedly seems you are succeeding in spite of some bad fortune. Keep doing as you are except Don't water foliage regularly. However IMHO foliar feeding in evening or cool days a couple times weekly might help some.

PS: against south wall is BAD idea! It will reflect Suns heat back at tree for double whammy.

I was pretty sure that removing it was the best idea since it had already been shot at a bunch (or so I assume). Here is where I removed it from, facing the pit from the tree.



And a closeup of the ground, which was representative of the whole area.



When you suggest foliar feeding, can you provide any guidance as to the best type of fertilizer for this purpose? Glad to hear from someone with Pondo-specific experience.

 

[Sagebrush]

Good trunk to start with and thank you for rescuing tree from further destruction. Having several Ponderosas believe likely you are doing well even if just stumbling along at the moment. Blessedly seems you are succeeding in spite of some bad fortune. Keep doing as you are except Don't water foliage regularly. However IMHO foliar feeding in evening or cool days a couple times weekly might help some.

PS: against south wall is BAD idea! It will reflect Suns heat back at tree for double whammy.

I agree with wall comment completely. I stressed out some various species by placing them against a west facing rock wall in El Paso. When air temp is 98° that wall area is like an oven. I should have known this.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

I agree with wall comment completely. I stressed out some various species by placing them against a west facing rock wall in El Paso. When air temp is 98° that wall area is like an oven. I should have known this.

I missed that part in my replies--it did not sit in front of that wall for long. Just a temporary placement while I was figuring things out.

It is a good point that you and @Potawatomi13 make.

 

[rockm]

If you have to place a tree near a fence, a wooden fence is not as bad as a cinderblock/masonry/solid surface fence. Solid materials act as heat sinks, as well as reflectors. What heat those solid objects absorb during the day get radiated back out at night, which means a tree near them gets a double dose of overheating well into the night.

 

[MaciekA]

Once you have needles fully emerged and on their way to hardening I would march the tree out to full sun. FWIW, most of my pine collections go into straight full sun — next to a bright south facing wall, even — right away. YMMV if you’re in high desert areas and at high elevation a morning sun dose might be more intense than one at sea level. Still though, emerged needles that harden are your signal to chase the sun because at that point, water consumption will go down and focus will shift to growth of roots, trunk, limbs, and future buds.

 

[I_I_am_not_a_cat]

Once you have needles fully emerged and on their way to hardening I would march the tree out to full sun. FWIW, most of my pine collections go into straight full sun — next to a bright south facing wall, even — right away. YMMV if you’re in high desert areas and at high elevation a morning sun dose might be more intense than one at sea level. Still though, emerged needles that harden are your signal to chase the sun because at that point, water consumption will go down and focus will shift to growth of roots, trunk, limbs, and future buds.

How do you determine when the needles have hardened off? I searched on here (as well as google) but did not come up with much. It seems like it is such a well-known topic that I can't find a basic explanation. Maybe I am using the wrong terms in my searching...