How do I Air layer at a Y? A.P. Shindeshejo.

Johnnyd

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I'm looking to maximize the nebari for a twin trunk. Screenshot_20180322-184015.jpg
 

Johnnyd

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I was concerned that if I layer below the y I would have automatic reverse taper. Was thinking of using ring and tourniquet together.
 

sorce

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https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/radialayer™-a-season-saver.17046/

More Important than the only good way to make an airlayer, unless you are going for exposed root, or root over rock material...

Is choosing a good place to put it...

For me, while I admittedly don't really understand the pic....
There's nothing worth layering there unless you are layering for layering practice sake, or to propogate long term projects.

Seems the intended spot will be a scarry mess, with possible buds left to grow that would only enhace scarry messiness with inevitable future moves.

You just posted again....I went off on a tangent that has sealed my determination to write a book in a PM ....

Anyway...second post sounds like you are thinking so lets continue this discussion....

More pics?

Sorce
 

sorce

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We should also ask @0soyoung if this discussion is worth having about this tree.

Lets have it anyway.

An appropriate airlayer, not for practice or propagating, its whole purpose is to reduce the time it takes to make a finished tree...
Or at least, we strive for this with the best of our abilities....

So find a tree you like, and try to find a piece of tree that looks just like it, as close as you can come, and airlayer that!

Best case scenario...you find a tree that is ready to be styled and can show in a year.

The other, But not "worst" case scenario is like you have here.. Where we are more propgating for a long term project.

That said, nothing is wrong, but you have to be realistic in where you are in the balance of these scenarios.

It is most important because all the "it depends" and difficulties show their ugly faces when we are not realistic with ourselves.

That U scenario is a great problem that is usually avoided anywhere as it only becomes beautiful 1% of the time

Add that it is on a maple which has opposite growth already bursting and ret to get...

And the best thing you can hope for from that is a clump that doesn't have a pinched waist, and a tree that has its entire focal point, the connection with soil...
Nasty with High root chops low sucker branch chops. And a bunch of shit you fight forever. .

But it depends....

Does your Future Vision Find that interesting and artistically displayable?

Than Do it!

Sorce
 

0soyoung

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I have a shin deshojo in my yard. I habitually air layer branches that would otherwise be pruned and tossed (I do think shin deshojo would make fabulous bonsai!) I don't have any particular problem growing roots, but after nearly 10 years at this game I've only have one shin deshojo layer that has survived the following season. Why continues to be an unresolved mystery, though I may have the diagnosis and solution to it. But this is aside from the point of this tread.

To the point, I agree with @sorce, there is little point in choosing that 'Y' other than you can cut one branch off and have the beginnings of a trunk that will eventually smoothly curve (which is good).

One can waste a season by wrapping a wire tourniquet around the stem and leaving it in place this season. It will produce a nice tapered swelling about the tourniquet. Then, spring 2019, remove the wire and cut the top of the girdle just above where the wire was and proceed making the air layer. All of this is a huge waste of time with any acer palmatum. All acer palmatum layers will make a flaring skirt within a few seasons of having been planted.

If one has the freedom to pick what they want to layer (as opposed to my self-imposed constraint), decide what your objective is. Shitty, boring, thin, straight-ish branches are great stuff for group/forest plantings - it helps if there is some variation in thicknesses. Branches that draw your interest because to the 'form' they have over a span of 18 to 24 inches are also good for this ilk of bonsai (rule of thumb, if they are shitty for bonsai, they are good for group/forest plantings).

On the other hand, if you want to make a single stem bonsai, look for a very curvy (but not right angle bends!) heavy one. Just consider the 6 to 12 inch stem section with no regard for what else is happening, because you will cut if off everything else long before this stem section is the trunk of your fabulous (shin deshojo) bonsai. As @sorce has said, an air-layer really just gives one a head start on producing the lowest segment of the trunk. Its a hard lessen that took me the better part of a decade to appreciate.

Sorry, I've got to go now.
Its time to cut a few more girdles on my shin deshojo.


btw. I cut the girdles today. I'll just leave them 'dangling naked in the air' until next weekend. Then I'll bag some damp sphagnum over the them and wait for August to roll around. I'd like to use my favorite bonsai substrate instead of sphagnum, but these are basically horizontal branches I'm layering. In this circumstance it is way too complicated.
 

Johnnyd

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I have a shin deshojo in my yard. I habitually air layer branches that would otherwise be pruned and tossed (I do think shin deshojo would make fabulous bonsai!) I don't have any particular problem growing roots, but after nearly 10 years at this game I've only have one shin deshojo layer that has survived the following season. Why continues to be an unresolved mystery, though I may have the diagnosis and solution to it. But this is aside from the point of this tread.

To the point, I agree with @sorce, there is little point in choosing that 'Y' other than you can cut one branch off and have the beginnings of a trunk that will eventually smoothly curve (which is good).

One can waste a season by wrapping a wire tourniquet around the stem and leaving it in place this season. It will produce a nice tapered swelling about the tourniquet. Then, spring 2019, remove the wire and cut the top of the girdle just above where the wire was and proceed making the air layer. All of this is a huge waste of time with any acer palmatum. All acer palmatum layers will make a flaring skirt within a few seasons of having been planted.

If one has the freedom to pick what they want to layer (as opposed to my self-imposed constraint), decide what your objective is. Shitty, boring, thin, straight-ish branches are great stuff for group/forest plantings - it helps if there is some variation in thicknesses. Branches that draw your interest because to the 'form' they have over a span of 18 to 24 inches are also good for this ilk of bonsai (rule of thumb, if they are shitty for bonsai, they are good for group/forest plantings).

On the other hand, if you want to make a single stem bonsai, look for a very curvy (but not right angle bends!) heavy one. Just consider the 6 to 12 inch stem section with no regard for what else is happening, because you will cut if off everything else long before this stem section is the trunk of your fabulous (shin deshojo) bonsai. As @sorce has said, an air-layer really just gives one a head start on producing the lowest segment of the trunk. Its a hard lessen that took me the better part of a decade to appreciate.

Sorry, I've got to go now.
Its time to cut a few more girdles on my shin deshojo.


btw. I cut the girdles today. I'll just leave them 'dangling naked in the air' until next weekend. Then I'll bag some damp sphagnum over the them and wait for August to roll around. I'd like to use my favorite bonsai substrate instead of sphagnum, but these are basically horizontal branches I'm layering. In this circumstance it is way too complicated.
My transition to bonsai started shorty after I began collecting Japanese maples about 2 yr ago. The shindeshejos I have been able to acquire from Evergreen are pencil thin (on three own roots). I was able to pick up a Beni maki (similar color to shin. D BUT ON the Orange s side of red) that was nicely grafted, however would eventually need yo be air layered. I was using this one posted today as practice because it is grafted but slightly larger than a pencil. In you're experience with air layering shin deshojo would you recommend putting them in the ground to protect them once separated. I'm interested in you theory you alluded to earlier. Here is a picture of the Beni M. I may air layer next year. I have been going back and forth between air layering and attempting to hide the graft by thread grafting at the graft site. I know this may not work but am tempted to take a short cut until I learn to air layer proficiently.
 

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Johnnyd

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https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/radialayer™-a-season-saver.17046/

More Important than the only good way to make an airlayer, unless you are going for exposed root, or root over rock material...

Is choosing a good place to put it...

For me, while I admittedly don't really understand the pic....
There's nothing worth layering there unless you are layering for layering practice sake, or to propogate long term projects.

Seems the intended spot will be a scarry mess, with possible buds left to grow that would only enhace scarry messiness with inevitable future moves.

You just posted again....I went off on a tangent that has sealed my determination to write a book in a PM ....

Anyway...second post sounds like you are thinking so lets continue this discussion....

More pics?

Sorce
Yes I've seen your threads on the Radialdisc. This is a great idea. I was going to use this plumbers putty for the cone. I've seen someone use a coffee can lid with the some purpose. I plan on using these idea as long as I'm not violating any copy right laws. I like the Idea of using fine pumice and lava in a split pot. I crazy glued some upside down bottle caps to the bottom of my pot. To retain humidity. Still trying to think of a trademark name. Root beer cap pot sound ok?
My purpose is starting with the largest trunk of Shin D. AP I can find without a graft. Maybe I just n need Oso's address. Jk.
 

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0soyoung

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In you're experience with air layering shin deshojo would you recommend putting them in the ground to protect them once separated. I'm interested in you theory you alluded to earlier.
Nope. Grow the layers in pots (or boxes) of substrate. Ground growing will produce a few heavy roots and you'll later have to work them back. They grow well in pots.

For years my landscape specimen's first spring leaves gets blackened edges. It tends to be a little breezy here in early spring, so I've always waved it off a wind burn as it later shed these leaves, put out a new flush, and grew vigorously thereafter. Meanwhile, my air layers from the previous season would leaf out and suddenly collapse. Roots were healthy.

So last year I put together a group planting of 6 layers from 2016 arrayed around the big survivor layer from 2015. The group leafs out and I see some 'wind burned leaves' like on the mother tree. "Huh" I say to myself, "there's no wind here; definitely not wind burn". I have a couple more 2016 layers in pots elsewhere - they too have 'the windburn'. My cogs slowly turned and after a shameful delay I decide that I've been really stupid for having not been spraying peroxide solution. Then I slowly got out of my chair and did it everyday for a while. The big 2015 survivor is alive and responded like the big landscape specimen. All the rest are dead but for one of the other, separate 2016 layers which has a few buds this spring.

So, I'm thinking it is a fungal/bacterial issue. I've seen the same on Ukigumo a couple of times, but no other Japanese maple in my collections. I've got 2 new layers from last year and I've started spraying even though the buds, while bright red, haven't yet broken. I may spray peroxide solution every day, its cheap and eco-friendly. It remains to be seen if I will have 4 living layers or more dead ones again.
 

sorce

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Johnny D... Youre in it!

All that's left is the winning!
Sorcee
 

Johnnyd

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I have like 15 different kinds a Japanese Maple including ukiGomo. May be one of my favorites but don't think it's great for bonsai. I have a large sango kaku in my front yard that needs spray usually copper, every year especially if we have a storm and are any of the branches break. Just picked up a systemic fungicide, phython 27. This stuff comes with all kinds of warning about how dangerous this chemical can be. I've seen other people post about the timing for spraying in spring just before budds break. Ever use a systemic?
 

Johnnyd

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https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/radialayer™-a-season-saver.17046/

More Important than the only good way to make an airlayer, unless you are going for exposed root, or root over rock material...

Is choosing a good place to put it...

For me, while I admittedly don't really understand the pic....
There's nothing worth layering there unless you are layering for layering practice sake, or to propogate long term projects.

Seems the intended spot will be a scarry mess, with possible buds left to grow that would only enhace scarry messiness with inevitable future moves.

You just posted again....I went off on a tangent that has sealed my determination to write a book in a PM ....

Anyway...second post sounds like you are thinking so lets continue this discussion....

More pics?

Sorce
Lower may be better. There are three small branches below the y.
 

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sorce

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What happened?

You spent the last x amount of time of your life being awesome!

You show the thing that everyone who ends up making good trees shows!

Johnny D is in the house....
Johnny D is in the House....!

You can't fail!

So get to winning!

Sorce
 

sorce

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Is that the graft right below?

For me in this state.

Its faster to make a tree/ more profitable to propagate/....

It makes more sense to layer a tippy tip. As the difference in quality of start is so equal.

That way you still have a grafted root base to push strong other growth.

Where of you layer low, and remove the good grafted roots, you still have to remove everything else above it, and of you aim to propgate it, you should have done that first.

In the mean time.

That place where that fork is.....
2018-03-24-15-30-47.jpg

The long sections will forever be useless accept as sacrifice.

Once cut to the yellow, that entire area become useless. Useless in that the years it will take to bother to grow are slayed by your ability to get a better start free from a bonsai friend.

I think I dismissed maples layering where there is no node because a wider base is always achievable elsewhere...it just happens that yours isn't offering that wider base safe yet. (Keep growing it!)

But if you can layer it at the green....

That is your best start for, what is arguably one of the worst trees! A Pine maple! Lol!

But that is your best start for a traditional J maple.

My preffered....and why I knock opposite buds off like Mobsters knock off snitches...

Had that tree been allowed a middle extension, and ONE side extension...aka...if one of the opposite buds were rubbed off before that useless shit grew.

This material would be better in that area for...
1. A naturalistic maple that won't get Reverse taper.
2. Softer branch angles if it we're a branch.
3 a better layer opportunity

Resorce

Therefore....there is never a good reason to leave opposite buds to grow. Except for beyond a place you know you will cut back before, and never need to keep for anything.

Sorce
 

Johnnyd

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Is that the graft right below?

For me in this state.

Its faster to make a tree/ more profitable to propagate/....

It makes more sense to layer a tippy tip. As the difference in quality of start is so equal.

That way you still have a grafted root base to push strong other growth.

Where of you layer low, and remove the good grafted roots, you still have to remove everything else above it, and of you aim to propgate it, you should have done that first.

In the mean time.

That place where that fork is.....
View attachment 183057

The long sections will forever be useless accept as sacrifice.

Once cut to the yellow, that entire area become useless. Useless in that the years it will take to bother to grow are slayed by your ability to get a better start free from a bonsai friend.

I think I dismissed maples layering where there is no node because a wider base is always achievable elsewhere...it just happens that yours isn't offering that wider base safe yet. (Keep growing it!)

But if you can layer it at the green....

That is your best start for, what is arguably one of the worst trees! A Pine maple! Lol!

But that is your best start for a traditional J maple.

My preffered....and why I knock opposite buds off like Mobsters knock off snitches...

Had that tree been allowed a middle extension, and ONE side extension...aka...if one of the opposite buds were rubbed off before that useless shit grew.

This material would be better in that area for...
1. A naturalistic maple that won't get Reverse taper.
2. Softer branch angles if it we're a branch.
3 a better layer opportunity

Resorce

Therefore....there is never a good reason to leave opposite buds to grow. Except for beyond a place you know you will cut back before, and never need to keep for anything.

Sorce
Thank you! I see what you are talking about now.
 

sorce

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This "except for" place...
Therefore....there is never a good reason to leave opposite buds to grow. Except for beyond a place you know you will cut back before, and never need to keep for anything.

Is at the yellow, that is the point at which beyond, nothing matters, except for where it does! (Other layers, cutting etc)2018-03-24-16-11-32.jpg

The most important thing is to nurture the green, your first segment, first branch, and second segment. BVF talks of just keeping things viable. This is huge. That little branch only needs to stay viable, with base buds popping, so later it can be restarted.

Again reiterating this is nurturing this part for years to layer in the future.
Just this little part. But it will be unrecognizably bigger when we remove it.2018-03-24-16-22-34.jpg

The opposite side of this can sprout buds and cause reverse taper. If something is not done.
This is where I defer to Smoke and @Brian Van Fleet because that whole ... Trunk dying on a trident thread was enlightening..

That comes into play here.

For me, cutting off any buds that pop on the other side of this, is your best move if you wish to keep the top on for now to propagate, But if that will somehow, down the road lead to the back dying off when we take the top off, it wouldnt be a good idea.
If you can avoid that....plus!

Why?

Because if buds pop on the back and you wish to keep them to prevent this one side dieback phenomenon, and use them...I find it more visually pleasing to make that in between V cut now! Which means you lose your top and propagating capability.

Where of it is safe to keep just these two front branches for the future, you can nake a large cut in the back that will always be hidden, and heal, but....will that lead to dieback? And an ugly dead tree as Smoke taught us in that other thread?

Timing amd attention needs to be so great now...whereas mindless budknocking on healthy trees keeps this situation from ever getting so serious!

Bud Knock!

PPB!

Sorce
 
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I have a similar problem with my Deshojo maple, so maybe is better to post here than to start a new thread.
Couldn't find anything locally, so I had to buy it online from a nursery in France. "The trunk" is pencil thick and it has a horrible graft. It has lot of brances, but all of them are straight and thick as a matchstick or thinner. Distance between nodes is on average 5 centimeters (2 inches). Branches are emerging in groups the trunk, 4-5 even 6 from a single place.
I repoted it a week ago, after receiving it, in a colander using pumice and coco fiber (80/20) as substrate, it was in a very small plastic container with organic soil. It wasn't in great shape when it came, but now I see new leaves on some branches, so I think it is doing well.
I know I have to let it grow and I am not in a hurry. Growing in the ground is not an option unfortunately but I plan to put it in an airpot as big as possible when the time comes and it will be grown on the terrace. At a later date I want to air layer a branch and grow it on a tile.
Question is: should I choose a branch for future trunk next season and wire it (next season), to put some movement on it? At the moment all branches are straight as an arrow.Would it be a good idea to pinch the growth on the chosen branch for a few seasons, to insure the future trunk will have short internodes?
Should I cut some branches where there are too many emerging from the same spot? For now I think is better to leave it as it is, allowing the tree to grow and strengthen without additional stress, but I am not sure what to do in the winter.
Regarding the air layering, even if I'm not in a hurry I think it will be better sooner than later, because it will allow more time for root development. How thick should be a branch before attempting the layering?
Many thanks!
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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Hi all,
Or you can try rooting Shindeshojo cuttings as semi-hardwood throughout season with 1% IBA with mist etc.
I have a few cuttings rooted now to try my hand with, and going to try more the next season - winter here in NZ so yeah, as my Shindeshojo airlayers were all failures.
Only got to wait 20 years to show my efforts lol :)
Charles
 
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