Quotes by Will Heath
"But why is it winning? Is the problem with the current members of any forum that actually contribute to it, is it with the moderators who allow it, or is it both? One can't help but to think that if such content was ignored, not responded to, or quickly moved to a "silly section" or deleted, it would not exist at all. I think the best explanation is that a lot of current participants in forums come, not so much for bonsai and sharing information on the art, as they do for conversation, comradeship, to feel as if they belong to a group, this is a powerful thing."
Will, I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I get the distinct impression from the moderators at BT, BC, and BS. The moderators there seem to pretty much run the show, not intentionally, but they post an enormous number of posts and this sets the agenda. None of these folks seems to be very far advanced in bonsai as far as I can tell. They don't really need to be to be moderators, but domination of the posting by this group really lowers the bar of the quality of the site. I understand the dilemma, one doesn't want to leave a newbie question dangling. I think the better system is to have a benign dictator like Bnut, and let the chips fall where they may. If I ran a forum, that's certainly what I would do.
"We have a couple forums to look to, take one, IBC, in which not a lot of silliness happens and there is a lot of posts daily, some serious and a lot from some of the most experienced players in the business. You don't see the happy birthday threads or the personal attacks, ego head butting, and other such silliness there, or at least not as much as with some other forums. Yet, it has become more of a gallery that one can comment on than a informational, educational forum. It has changed a lot since the old days you talk of Brent, why?"
The easy answer here is that Jim Lewis simply won't allow any silliness or personal attacks. Although, I like the guy, his style does have a chilling effect. I have talked to numerous people who won't post there because of some unfortunate exchange, or fear of one. This has dried up a lot of the spontaneity. The IBC still has the greatest number of professional and otherwise knowledgeable bonsai practitioners. It is my hope that it will arise from it's slumber to rule again. Just one or a few individuals can set the tone, make a forum, or even ruin it. I still can't believe how bad BC got after you got bounced. I won't pull any punches, you can generate a terrific amount of serious bonsai discussion, but your manner has often brought out the worst in people as well, and perhaps the worst in you. I am certainly glad to see that that is changing. Overall you are a valuable asset. You just have to learn how to bite your tongue!
"My theory is commercialism. I believe that commercialism is behind most of the silliness on many forums. I believe that many forums have went the route of at least trying to cover expenses and at the most, trying to make a profit. So why is this bad?...."
That's an interesting point. I never thought about it in those terms, although I truly subscribe to your thesis in regard to our economic system in general. Just look at what it has done for TV. I don't think it is intentional, but as Noam Chomsky says, it doesn't matter if something is truly a conspiracy if it acts like one.
"Beginners are a valuable commodity to the commercial forum and some go to great lengths to keep them as a captive audience...."
They are a valuable asset period. I was the one who always argued for the IBC to maintain the link to the great unwashed at rec.arts.bonsai. I didn't want it to turn into some high falutin elite forum, but it did eventually anyway, which is probably the reason that I drifted away from it. New blood is essential to discussion, otherwise it gets old and stale really quickly. Sure, we have to anwer the same questions 800 times a year, but this makes us constantly reevaluate what we know. Concepts change, even accepted basic principles can change over time. Beginners bring us rare gems along with tons of pony poop. It's up to us to figure out which is which. I hope no one is intrepreting this thread as that I am not in favor of newbies. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I just don't want a forum that is run FOR beginners and BY beginners. Maybe this is where your point of commercialism comes in. I think we
should talk over the level of beginners most of the time, otherwise how will they ever learn? I didn't have any luck pushing this philosophy when teaching school either.
"The need to entertain beginners and keep them loyal seems to led to such things as 20 dollar limit styling contests, pipe cleaner bonsai contests, happy birthday threads, and giving aspiring bonsaists advice and information that may make them "feel good" now, but helps little in the long run."
(Sigh) Yes, so true. I can't tell you how many times I have critiqued a beginner's stick in a pot and left them wondering and a little wiser rather than pissed off. All it takes is a bit of sensitivity, and for the most part, that is what I see on all the forums. Rarely do I see a comment that is really rude like "Take it back to the store and get your money back." But to read the views of a lot of newbies, you would think that this is happening all the time. I don't believe it. I think the blame lies mostly in the attitude of our audience, but hey, if it's too hot, get out of the kitchen. This isn't a therapy forum for the learning challenged. Some of these folks need serious attitude adjustments. I just let this stuff slide. I figure I give it my best shot, and I refused to be drawn in. If you think Superthrive is the best thing since sliced bread, go for it.
"Don't get me wrong, beginners should be nurtured, their questions should be answered, and their needs should be met. But by letting the income potential of members dictate what happens, what is allowed, what is said on a forum helps no one but the forum owner. Beginners need to be nurtured, they need to be given honest guidance, they do not need to be catered to."
Precisely. Hopefully the commercial element won't come into play here.
"Personally, I have all but given up on doing virtuals on this forum anymore after being razed for doing so by people who state that virtuals are much easier than bonsai..."
But you can't do this. It's not fair to the rest of us. You have let the will of a few individuals (I won't condemn them, there's always two sides to a story) dictate your life and what the rest of us can learn from you. Like I used to tell my good friend Crystal who was tortured by her family members: "You let them push your buttons. But they are your buttons. The choice is really yours, you can empower them by letting them force your behavior, or you can refuse to play the game." Which is another way of saying what I said earlier. Susie likes to say "What you feed grows", which is even more succinct. These are the kinds of lessons we need to learn if internet communication is to succeed.
"Last year I had taken the time to write two tutorials on creating virtuals in Photoshop. I purposely made them easy to follow and included dozens of screen shots so that anyone with the program could create virtuals in a short amount of time. They are still posted for those interested,
here."
I will leave this up here so there is another chance to see it. There was another tutorial on another site that did the same thing with Photshop and GIMP as well, which was great for me because I am on a Linux computer.
"People would consistently post advice and comments in that section, not giving Walter the first right of reply. There was also problems with people posting material for critique that was not up to the standards laid forth by Walter himself. Why was this allowed to continue? "
This should not have been allowed to continue. This is where a benign dictator policy works best, to hell with the advertising. Some people can't see their noses in front of their faces. Gardenweb committed the same sin. By not allowing ANY sort of commercialization (other than their own), not even in a sig line, they pissed off people like me to the point that anyone with any knowledge about bonsai refused to post any more. What they didn't get was that I drew one hell of lot more people to their site than I stole as customers. And look at Gardenweb now.
Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at
http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com
PS: Hey! What do you know, a real discussion, and no one interested except me and Will.