How many bonsai enthusiasts visit bonsai sites on the Internet?

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Let's see a searchable index for back issues of Bonsai Today. Hell, I'd resubscribe just for a printed one that went beyond Issue 36!

How about it Will, would you do it?

What a great idea, that would indeed be a valuable tool.

No, I am not that geeky, I am a better manager than technician, and with current bonsai projects, I barely have the time to go to work, I hate it when my job interferes with my personal life. ;)

I hear Wayne's Son, Joe is real good with computers, maybe you should suggest this to Wayne and see if he can make it a feature on the Bonsai Today web site, considering that it could be used by all and then may result in some orders for back issues, I think he'd like the idea.


Will
 

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A little levity now and again is good for the soul, prevents crankiness and growing old (from one old fart to another :)

Maybe I'm just getting jaded, I know I'm getting old and cranky, but I am seeing a disturbing trend in the internet forums.
This trend is embracing beginners with strong computer skills and weak on bonsai skills, while the older more experienced crowd is slowly drifting away.

Perhaps what is needed in this day of political correctness, is to say it as it is and strick moderation. In this day and age, everyone wants a "forum" and are reluctant to apply the rules of said forums (not all now) in order to have a "crowd". Is it the neophytes thirsting for knowledge or the wise just given up and going elsewhere. Where might I add?

Now you can argue whether this is good, bad, or just a natural evolution of the electronic media, but I HATE it! Even Walter Pall (you don't even have to put his last name), the most conversant computer literate bonsai artist in the world rarely posts anywhere anymore.

Perhaps he is just tired of arguing incestantly, or busy keeping his blog up to date. If you look at the work that has gone on, on his blog, no wonder he hasn't found the time to post. He is reaching folks using "electronic means" to their full advantage.

On the other hand, there is a plethora or mallsai, stick in pot, newbie posts. Plenty of useless banter, birthday bemusements, and squirrel/ rodent treatises. I go blind reading through the New Posts of half a dozen sites several times a day trying to find something, ANYTHING, to which I can respond.

Sad but true...

This forum started out as a refreshing outpost of good solid, meaty bonsai posts, but is already starting to dwindle into drivel. Maybe it's just that it's spring and that we are all busy as hell with our plants; I know I am. But sheesh, we can't all be THAT busy.

There are sevral good forums out there that do not cater to neophytes perse, why are you not exchanging information on those sites? It seems a man of your talent would be a welcomed addition to these particular thoughtful sites.

Another disturbing part of this trend is that every few months or so, a newbie comes along that is head and shoulders above the crowd, a person who just seems to grasp the issues and moves almost immediately beyond the stick in pot phase. This is always exciting for me, and I try to culture an online relationship with these folks to keep them interested and AROUND. Most of these people drop out after a couple of months or about a year. I don't know what they are doing, but they aren't participating in the forums anymore.

...perhaps they were abandoned, or and now seeking refuge elsewhere.

I know I am really being selfish here, but I don't care, I want ACTION. I get action by responding to a good meaty post, with good material and thoughful questions about design and how to achieve it.

Then I suggest that you start surfing the meat department for intellectual stimulus, you know where these forums are. Take a small step and a giant one for bonsaikind.

Sure, I could write articles in the forums that would get your juices going, but let's face it, I'm a business man. If I am going to take the time to compose and photograph an article, it ain't going here, it's going to my website or blog where it won't be dead and buried after two weeks. No, I participate in the educational process by responding to what you have to say and ask, and I think that's plenty to contribute.

I now that being a nursery owner is a time consuming and often unrewarding proposition at best. It seems that instead of ranting here you should have taken the time to update your blog, which, I constantly check and hasn't been updated since December. This is where your focus should lie if there is nothing stimulating any more for you on the forums. You are an extremely talented and intelligent individual, you blog was an inspiration to all of us. Will it continue to inspire us, that ball is in your court.

Plus I want THEM to have the exposure to what people who have been at this for twenty or thirty years know and can do.

The may I be so bold to recommend you stop bit..... and start educating/nurturing us once again!!

It just may be too much to hope for. Let's face it, this is a REALLY esoteric art, and even with four billion or six billion or whatever it is now people in the world, there are still only a relatively tiny number of us, way less than one thousandth of one percent, far fewer than quilters, fly fisherman, you name it. The internet held the promise to create the necessary critical mass by increasing the flux dramatically. Through the internet we can reach virtually everyone in the art, all over the world, but instead, as Will points out, we reach a few percent.

The sad part is, not everyone wishes to participate in this kind of venue. Having said that, folks who know the usefulness of this powerful tool will indeed seek and acquire knowledge in cyberspace. Will they participate in forums? That remains to be seen! If you "google" a specific question, more often than not it will lead you to a specific article vice forums perse.

Why is this? I endlessly recommend the internet as a source of bonsai to my friends and anyone who shows even the slightest interest. Of our study group of six, only Bob and I use the internet to any degree, and that is probably skewed way to the high side. In our club REBS, the majority of the movers and shakers NEVER post to a forum, in fact, I can only think of one who does and then only rarely. These are people with plenty of talent and trees to die for, but you don't see them around here. How do we get a critical mass of THESE people? It isn't that they don't know how to use computers, that used to be the problem, but it isn't anymore, they all have email addresses these days. We better start thinking about this and finding solutions. It's either that or beginning to do most of our plant buying at Lowe's.

That is indeed a thought provoking statement. It is probably in line with the difficulty I am experiencing in widening the awareness of bonsai in my province, it seems like flogging a dead horse.

This was rather blunt, but then again Brent is the type of fellow that does not beat around the bush. You have much to offer both horticulturally and artistically, more often than not, the only participation we see is in the form of the aforementioned post. Why is it a man of your talent cannot be found participating on the more "serious sites"?
 

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If I am going to take the time to compose and photograph an article, it ain't going here, it's going to my website or blog where it won't be dead and buried after two weeks.
Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
]

I also MOSTLY stopped doing photo essays of work on TALK groups. Why? As Brent says, it's LOTS of work taking photos as you work, then sizing them, then posting with text, just so some JERK can make a stupid comment on your thread which they refuse to delete or modify, a comment that is there FOREVER!!! for anyone to seek out on the WWW.
I have SEVERAL examples.
Then, in a few days it's shuffled off into other pages never to be viewed again unless you update it.
Why bother???

I wish I were more computer literate so I could do my own blog also, and could control what some folks say to it.

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Dale, either blogger.com or WordPress.com make super easy-to-use blogs. It's mostly drop-down menus to choose your stuff, how you want it to look. If you don't want to resize photos at all, blogger automatically does it for you. There are a great many things I can't do yet on the web, but a blog is the easiest thing of all. I may transfer my entire website to the blog.
 

Dale Cochoy

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Yes Chris, I think I'll be checking into this.
I just received an "invite".
It might be a better idea for me as a low-tech'er over a web page and something I can update myself easier.
Rick, "WildThings Bonsai" is still around and has been since 1989, and is now joined by "Yakimono no Kokoro Bonsai Pottery" , but, alas still no up to date website....hence the questions/thoughts about being a "blogger".
Dale
 

Brent

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Quotes from Rick Moquin

"Perhaps he [Walter] is just tired of arguing incestantly, or busy keeping his blog up to date. If you look at the work that has gone on, on his blog, no wonder he hasn't found the time to post. He is reaching folks using "electronic means" to their full advantage."

Exactly. He has spent a lot of time on forums and found most of them wanting. Blogs are great, but they are one sided. I am looking for the free-for-all forums, just with more substance and without overwhelming silliness (a little silliness is good).


"There are sevral good forums out there that do not cater to neophytes perse, why are you not exchanging information on those sites? It seems a man of your talent would be a welcomed addition to these particular thoughtful sites."

Can we please stop referring these forums as if to say their names is heresy. I assume you mean AOB and KOB. In a word: BORING. With all due respect to Will and others, these forums are part of the Library, not the Coffeehouse. Am I clear about this concept? I never know anymore if my allusions and references are so ancient that they don' t have relevance or even recognition. Throughout the last century, the European coffeehouse was the hangout for students, artists, writers, and even scientists. It is said even Einstein hung out with other physicists at coffee houses debating new ideas.

From what I can see, the whole concept of AOB and KOB is much closer to that of the peer reviewed scientific journal than the coffee house. At least it is set up that way. Submit a paper and wait for responses to that paper for discussion. Have you checked the number of new posts everyday on these sites? They are fine for what they do, but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about hot conversation, not whispers in the library stacks. I hardly ever check the posts at these sites anymore. I have never joined either of them because I have never found one post to which I wanted to respond. Maybe that was a mistake. If things keep going downhill as I perceive them, I probably will join just to make sure that I am not missing something.I did go there to check on Walter's photo's though.



"...perhaps they [newbies of substance] were abandoned, or and now seeking refuge elsewhere."

Not likely. I made sure I contributed to whatever they had to say, and often emailed them privately. They just seem to drift away.



"I now that being a nursery owner is a time consuming and often unrewarding proposition at best. It seems that instead of ranting here you should have taken the time to update your blog, which, I constantly check and hasn't been updated since December. This is where your focus should lie if there is nothing stimulating any more for you on the forums. You are an extremely talented and intelligent individual, you blog was an inspiration to all of us. Will it continue to inspire us, that ball is in your court."

Well there's nothing like a good rant to stir the juices. Yes, the blog has fallen by the wayside temporarily. I am currently overwhelmed with work and other issues, having dealt with a death in the family, a massive attempt to finish the final nursery projects, and the frustration of having the IRS confiscate all my ready capital. After I got my tax forms back from the accountant, I owed exactly $40 more than I had in the bank. How do they do that? It reminds me of the corn chip ad where the poor soul is called before the IRS auditor. Taxpayer: Um, why am I here? IRS: Did you make money last year? Taxpayer: Yes???, IRS: Did you give it all to us? Taxpayer: Yes??? Then the auditor goes on to the take his chips and salsa or whatever. That's how I felt this year. I bust my balls to keep this enterprise going, paying about 3/4 of our income to service debt. Then I get a little windfall, which will make living just a tiny bit easier, and the IRS comes along and just takes it all. I guess I am more frustrated than angry. I don't mind living in poverty, I just don't like having my survival tools taken away. Well, I could go on forever about that.

The blog will be back again as soon as I get these projects out of the way, I am storing info for several posts, and I am hoping that Bob will join me in the blog as the Bonsai Apprentice as soon as HE can get his head above water.



"The may I be so bold to recommend you stop bit..... and start educating/nurturing us once again!!"

I never stopped. I still post at least once a week somewhere, recently, a lot more than that, and I have started posting again to the IBC, but at the website now instead of the Listserv which appears to be well and truly dead without rec.arts.bonsai.



"This was rather blunt, but then again Brent is the type of fellow that does not beat around the bush. You have much to offer both horticulturally and artistically, more often than not, the only participation we see is in the form of the aforementioned post. Why is it a man of your talent cannot be found participating on the more "serious sites"?"

Again, because that's not where the action is. They have their place. If I didn't have my own website and blog, I probably would post there and submit articles, but I do, so I have to consider my work in light of it's benefit to my business. There really isn't any answer to my concerns, I just want to express them, to stir the pot. Often we just let life go by and don't say "hey wait a minute" when a bit of introspection is called for. Sure, I would love to see more intermediate and advanced people on the forums, particularly on this one since I haven't given up on it yet, but there are already a number of people participating or at least lurking on forums who could come up with good stuff, ask embarassing questions, show photos, etc. I know we are all busy, but if we all just take a minute whenever we can to do this, we can counteract this trend.

Is there anyone reading this that has been on the bonsai forums since the mid '90's? Those were the glory days for me, the golden years when everything hadn't been already explained 800 times, and there were no FAQ's or published articles, where established 'experts' still held assinine bonsai myths (more than they do now), and were faced with hard evidence from the great unwashed. Those were wild days. I saved all the posts from that period whenever they were substantial, hundreds of pages of really good stuff, sometimes several posts a day of mindblowing material. There were all kinds of professionals participating. I think the flame fests got most of the professionals, and that still happens. You have to have a really thick skin to survive here.

I know these days can never be again, but it is extremely difficult for me to accept that the Birthday Bonsai Forum (BonsaiChat), AOB, and KOB are the logical evolution of what I saw back then. But then again, I was a hippy too, and look at us now.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com
 

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Brent,

Every single time you post, I learn something. My favorite posts on bonsai forums are either started by you or ones that you have posted in.

I am writing a new blog post about AOB, but you pretty much said it all, (even using a library reference). However my writing is more humorous/satirical.

This made me think. I only have the internet as a "connection" to the bonsai world. Except for a couple books. Maybe the reason I spend time, writing satire/mockumentaries is the nature of present day bonsai forums. When I read the archive posts at bonsaiTALK and to a lesser extent IBC (which many of the pictures are not archived) I see a lot of names that had high post counts, interesting and knowledgeable things to say, and outstanding photos, but they have not been on-line for 3 years.

Like Mr Cochoy said, the "experts" with a lot of experience don't want to post threads anymore because of the responses they get. So we are left with pseudo-experts and people who post so many links to AOB/KNOB, that you can't swing a dead cat on a forum, without accidentally clicking a link.

I missed the "golden age" but maybe with the increasing knowledge of the net/computers and the spread of bonsai forums, there will be a resurgance of that time. But what would be equally boring, would be a world full of "bonsai blogs" and zero interaction.
 
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Brent,

You are looking for a discussion forum, and one that has action without the majority of the silliness. I also thought this forum could be such and still hold on to the hope that it can be.

AoB and KoB were decidedly not set up to be discussion forums, at the time there were way too many discussion forums, happy birthday forums and beginner teaching beginner forums. It is not for everyone, I get literally dozens of emails monthly, most stating that the person loves the sites but doesn't feel qualified to participate or is intimidated by the content.

AoB filled a niche that wasn't filled at the time, where else can a person go and see so many world class galleries and interviews of the artists that create them? Where else can one go for strictly artistic discussion on bonsai? True, it is like a scientific journal of sorts, it does not, nor was it designed to compete with discussions forums. Posts there are from some of the most recognized names in bonsai, some of the articles there, especially in the eristic section have more views than articles in any other forum that I have seen (your own profile there Brent has 2760 views to date), and the few contests we have had there have brought in participants and viewers from all over the world, blazing new paths in the progress. AoB is also most likely the only non-commercial, non-advertising, non-donation seeking site today.

By anyone standards, AoB is a success, it is just not a discussion forum.

KoB on the other hand is more serious than most cultivation forums, it has blazed some new trails as well, such as the co-sponsorship with Bonsai Europe for the current contest, a collection of blogs from well recognized artists world-wide, and a policy that actually sends people off forum to content that pertains to the subject. KoB is still evolving, but I think it will come into it's own, it is already attracting those serious people that are tired of the squirrel threads and just want to be serious for awhile.

It should also be noted that both the above forums stress professional, polite debate, where the subject is discussed and debated and not the authors of the same. The "real name only" policies is one of the things that has kept it as such.

Bonsainut has the right formula for success, moderation and focus will determine if it continues on the right path. Besides with people like you posting here, there is still learning that can be had, if the static doesn't drown it out.


Will
 
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I am writing a new blog post about AOB, but you pretty much said it all, (even using a library reference). However my writing is more humorous/satirical.

What you call satire, many others have called attacks and hate messages, as in the current "satire" about myself and also KoB.

Thanks for the example of the static I was just talking about.


Will
 
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So we are left with pseudo-experts and people who post so many links to AOB/KNOB, that you can't swing a dead cat on a forum, without accidentally clicking a link.

Here's something constructive for you to do, take a article of mine, any one, on the web or in print....or pick one from AoB or KoB, anyone by anybody....

Now read it and then spend some time debating and/or attacking the content instead of the author, if you are capable.

Better yet, come out from behind the fake name you post under and actually contribute something to this forum other than veiled insults and hate blogs disguised as satire.

Contributing to the community is far harder than tearing it down.



Will
 
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Brent

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Brent,

You are looking for a discussion forum, and one that has action without the majority of the silliness. ...


Will

Will

Exactly. I have no problem with AOB or KOB, they do what they do well, it's just not what I am looking for. They only come into this discussion because they were recommended as an alternative and a solution to my frustration, which they are aren't. The presence of my profile at AOB demonstrates my support. I think the Profiles is one of the things that is extremely well done and quite valuable to the community.

The fact that the mere mention of these forums arouses such strong feelings is unfortunate and disappointing. I have a suggestion for both sides. The community is not well served by either the attacks on AOB or KOB OR the responses to them. I have no idea how all this got started, but the fact that it is perpetuated is one of the things that will kill the commraderie and free flow of information. So, my advice is: sometimes the only way to win is not to play the game. This advice has served me well over the ten years I have been here.

Brent
 

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I'm very sorry, I did not realise that making a remark about the links being posted (without using a person's name) would be so upsetting.

I also am surprised by the response I received.

I will continue to mind my manners and adhere to forum policy without making a bunch of remarks about OFFSITE stuff. This forum is not the place to vent personal feelings between members. So, back to this thread topic...

How many bonsai enthusiasts visit bonsai sites on the Internet?
 
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It would seem that we are all in agreement that the percentage of total bonsaists that use the internet forums is indeed small. Small in comparision to not only the total number of bonsaists, but also to those that subscribe to bonsai magazines.

The why, is still debatable,

Is it because forums as a whole do not offer the kind of content bonsaists are actively seeking?

Is it because most do not seek the "disscussion" and simply seek knowledge?

Is it because the off topic discussion creates static that most do not want to wade through?

Is it because most do not have computer access?

Is it because the forums are not known by many?



What are your thoughts?


Will
 

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Quotes by Will Heath

"It would seem that we are all in agreement that the percentage of total bonsaists that use the internet forums is indeed small. Small in comparision to not only the total number of bonsaists, but also to those that subscribe to bonsai magazines.The why, is still debatable, Is it because forums as a whole do not offer the kind of content bonsaists are actively seeking?"

I don't think so. When I do find a serious bonsai practitioner who 'discovers' the forum, they are usually amazed at the information there, eventhough they realize what it takes to separate the wheat from the chaff. But I bet this is changing and for the worst. I imagine the silliness is winning out.

"Is it because most do not seek the "disscussion" and simply seek knowledge?"

I think this is closer to the point. I get the impression that a lot of people aren't comfortable sticking their neck out, and for good reason in this medium. They are comfortable being lurkers and don't see the need to join in. So if this is the problem, then what is the 'killer app' that will bring them out of the woodwork? I thought it would be virtuals. This is an extremely powerful tool, and anyone who can submit a decent digital photo of a worthy piece of material can get astonishing results, from the talented few who can do these manipulations. Look at how popular Walter was when he was doing this in his Critique. But then I suppose we also have to look at why he isn't doing it anymore.

There are still technical barriers to get over, especially for the kind of serious bonsai folk that I would like to draw in. These include (don't laugh) the inability to type, inexperience with digital photograpy and downloading photos, the incredible non intuitiveness of Photoshop and GIMP (a problem for those who might be doing the virtuals). This is changing, but slowly. Older people (like me) don't seem to have the patience to spend much time learning software, why does it have to be so hard?

So, the people we do get, for the most part, have the computer skills first and the bonsai skills only lately. A look at the forums today abundantly demonstrate that. What we need now are those who have had bonsai skills for decades, but who have only begun to hurdle the computer challenges. This may take some time. But as I said before, I hope that it doesn't mean that we have to wait for the teenagers to grow up to see it happen.

Realistically, we have probably lost most of the fifty plus year olds who are bonsai proficient but computer challenged. This is indeed sad, since there is a wealth of information, not mention trees, in that group. For the thirty to forty plus group, we are to see great things, some of these folks have been in bonsai for a decade or two, and most are proficient with computers even if they didn't grow up with them. These are people like my apprentice Dr Bob. This group also understands the younger generation better than my group. I am a total loss at understanding what motivates teenageers, beyond the obvious of course.

"Is it because the off topic discussion creates static that most do not want to wade through?"

This doesn't keep a lot of people from finding us, but it does indeed turn a lot of people off. I hear that a lot. People start to get interested in the forums and then get totally frustrated with the food fights. Eventhough the good content is still there, the focus lands on the action, which is the non productive ego battles. I guess it's like watching reality TV. What in the world could be entertaining about that? Nonetheless, it is a formula for success. Don't you love it how corporate sponsors have this incredible knack for finding our lowest common denominator? And I do mean LOWEST.

"Is it because most do not have computer access?"

At one time that was definitely the problem, not anymore. Most people even have broadband these days.

"Is it because the forums are not known by many?"

Oh, I think they know about their existence, they just don't know, or can't see the potential.


Unfortunately, I still think it comes down to a problem of flux. Even with the ability to reach every bonsai practitioner on the planet, by the time we lose those for any of the above reasons, or for whatever reason, we end up with less than the critical mass. Oddly enough, and why I asked the question before, this was NOT the problem in the earliest days of the bonsai forums (only rec.arts.bonai and the linked IBC in the beginning). Even with primitive computers, dialup, the almost complete invisibility of the bonsai internet community, despite all these things, the discussion fourm in the four years from '96 to 2000 puts current discussion to shame. Sometimes I would get over a hundred email messages a day from the IBC Listserv. It would take hours to read them all, even the banter was fantastic and an art form itself. Remember the Haikumatic? I was never a fan, but it is probably like recalling the early days of Saturday Night Live. The early days of the bonsai forum had that kind of talent. Do you get a glimpse of why I want to hit the monitor with a baseball bat whenever I see a birthday greeting?

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseyrman.typepad.com
 

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" Do you get a glimpse of why I want to hit the monitor with a baseball bat whenever I see a birthday greeting? ".....as said by Brent.

No,I don't.

I really don't understand all the complaints about forums at all.They are social activities for the most part.There are forums for every purpose.None of them are perfect but taken as a whole;I see no reason why people can't get what they want by visiting more than one depending on their mood.

I'll stick My neck out and list the forums I frequent and "critique" them.Obviously(to most)this will be my OPINION.

I'll start with bonsainut for obvious reasons....I like the layout of this forum.But that's just a platform.It's too soon to tell whether it will grow into a good forum though.People make the forum and there just isn't enough traffic here to generate much interest....YET.I hope it grows and is a huge success.I hope it finds it's niche in the internet bonsai world.

bonsaiTalk....I guess this one is my chosen internet bonsai home.bT is probably the most social site I participate in.I like the people there.I like the chat.I like the humor.I like the give and take.I like the fact that there are people there who don't browbeat beginners into submission.I like that I can ask an opinion and get an opinion,not a dissertation pronouncing that my tree is obviously not worthy and never will be worthy of being called a bonsai.I like that I can say that bonsai is my hobby and not be accused of making excuses for my trees.I don't mind the Happy Birthday posts.I even read them sometimes.....especially when it's my birthday!Sometimes,some of the posts are less than interesting,the trees are less than outstanding,but it's probably more representative of where most people are in their bonsai life at any given moment.

IBC......I don't post there anymore.But I lurk and read and look at pictures of nice trees.I have to say that if Min Shuan Lo and Rob K. didn't post there,I probably would go there less frequently than I do now.Not that there aren't plenty of other fine artists posting....I just have a fondness for tropicals,especially ficus.

KOB....It is a little slow as far as participation,but when there are updates,they are usually quality.
It's a fine place.I like the galleries and the blogs are an inspiration.I think Paul and the others have done an outstanding job!

AOB......like KOB,I think it's a bit slow as far participation.But the content is second to none(that I frequent anyway).The galleries and profiles are great.The discussion is a bit esoteric for my taste.I don't know if the regulars actually take themselves and their opinions as seriously as they seem to.But all in all the discussion is good for a chuckle now and then.There are even moments where wisdom(as deemed by me:D ) is apparent.The discussion there is probably more like the coffeehouse atmosphere that Brent has mentioned.I wonder if they play bongo drums.A lot of deep thinking and agonising over the end of the bonsai world as we know it.

So there you have it.One persons opinion of the bonsai site world as he knows it.Some good and some not so good on each site.The amazing thing is i can travel between all of them with just a click of the mouse.

andy
 
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I don't think so. When I do find a serious bonsai practitioner who 'discovers' the forum, they are usually amazed at the information there, even though they realize what it takes to separate the wheat from the chaff. But I bet this is changing and for the worst. I imagine the silliness is winning out.
But why is it winning? Is the problem with the current members of any forum that actually contribute to it, is it with the moderators who allow it, or is it both? One can't help but to think that if such content was ignored, not responded to, or quickly moved to a "silly section" or deleted, it would not exist at all. I think the best explanation is that a lot of current participants in forums come, not so much for bonsai and sharing information on the art, as they do for conversation, comradeship, to feel as if they belong to a group, this is a powerful thing.

We have a couple forums to look to, take one, IBC, in which not a lot of silliness happens and there is a lot of posts daily, some serious and a lot from some of the most experienced players in the business. You don't see the happy birthday threads or the personal attacks, ego head butting, and other such silliness there, or at least not as much as with some other forums. Yet, it has become more of a gallery that one can comment on than a informational, educational forum. It has changed a lot since the old days you talk of Brent, why?

My theory is commercialism. I believe that commercialism is behind most of the silliness on many forums. I believe that many forums have went the route of at least trying to cover expenses and at the most, trying to make a profit. So why is this bad?

It's not bad for the owner, bless the man who tries and makes a profit, but it is bad for a forum. Think for a minute about what type of bonsaist clicks on the ads on forums? What type of Bonsaists buys from the sponsors of a forum, participates in forum actions, etc? The beginner.

Most experienced bonsaists already have sources for the material they need for bonsai. Most experienced Bonsaists ignore these ads, links, sponsors, etc that take up real estate on a forum. Unless it gets too out of control like it did at garden web and then you hear complaints, but they seldom solve the problem.

Beginners are the ones that click on the links, that buy the snake oils, they are the ones contributing the money to the business effort of the commercial forum owner.

Beginners are also the ones most likely to post a lot, actively discuss information on the forum, participate in the birthday threads, and such. The commercial forum owner soon learns that they must cater to these beginners, or else suffer a loss of income as well as activity on the forums.

Beginners are a valuable commodity to the commercial forum and some go to great lengths to keep them as a captive audience, some go as far as banning anyone who posts links to other forums for fear some of these people may spend their money elsewhere.

The need to entertain beginners and keep them loyal seems to led to such things as 20 dollar limit styling contests, pipe cleaner bonsai contests, happy birthday threads, and giving aspiring bonsaists advice and information that may make them "feel good" now, but helps little in the long run.

Don't get me wrong, beginners should be nurtured, their questions should be answered, and their needs should be met. But by letting the income potential of members dictate what happens, what is allowed, what is said on a forum helps no one but the forum owner. Beginners need to be nurtured, they need to be given honest guidance, they do not need to be catered to.

I could be wrong and I am sure many will say I am, but the evidence just seems to damning on these points to ignore.

I think this is closer to the point. I get the impression that a lot of people aren't comfortable sticking their neck out, and for good reason in this medium. They are comfortable being lurkers and don't see the need to join in. So if this is the problem, then what is the 'killer app' that will bring them out of the woodwork? I thought it would be virtuals. This is an extremely powerful tool, and anyone who can submit a decent digital photo of a worthy piece of material can get astonishing results, from the talented few who can do these manipulations. Look at how popular Walter was when he was doing this in his Critique. But then I suppose we also have to look at why he isn't doing it anymore.

There are still technical barriers to get over, especially for the kind of serious bonsai folk that I would like to draw in. These include (don't laugh) the inability to type, inexperience with digital photograpy and downloading photos, the incredible non intuitiveness of Photoshop and GIMP (a problem for those who might be doing the virtuals). This is changing, but slowly. Older people (like me) don't seem to have the patience to spend much time learning software, why does it have to be so hard?

Brent, I also feel that virtuals are a very valuable and often overlooked tool for not only designing bonsai, but also for expressing ideas in a visual manner that can be easily understood by many. Virtuals are also very good for pot selection, it helps a lot when one can actually see the tree in the pot first.

Personally, I have all but given up on doing virtuals on this forum anymore after being razed for doing so by people who state that virtuals are much easier than bonsai, and such other nonsense. In order to do a good virtual, one must understand what is actually possible, work with existing branches and trunk lines, and understand the species in order to represent a realistic possible route to undertake.

Last year I had taken the time to write two tutorials on creating virtuals in Photoshop. I purposely made them easy to follow and included dozens of screen shots so that anyone with the program could create virtuals in a short amount of time. They are still posted for those interested, here.

It is my understanding that the ATM forum that Walter used to do used many virtuals in the advice given. In fact I saved the virtuals created by Uwe Zeller for Walter on one of my trees presented. Walter complained on many occasions that people were not following the guidelines set forth for the section. People would consistently post advice and comments in that section, not giving Walter the first right of reply. There was also problems with people posting material for critique that was not up to the standards laid forth by Walter himself.

Why was this allowed to continue? See my rant on commercialism above.


Unfortunately, I still think it comes down to a problem of flux. Even with the ability to reach every bonsai practitioner on the planet, by the time we lose those for any of the above reasons, or for whatever reason, we end up with less than the critical mass. Oddly enough, and why I asked the question before, this was NOT the problem in the earliest days of the bonsai forums (only rec.arts.bonai and the linked IBC in the beginning). Even with primitive computers, dialup, the almost complete invisibility of the bonsai internet community, despite all these things, the discussion forum in the four years from '96 to 2000 puts current discussion to shame. Sometimes I would get over a hundred email messages a day from the IBC Listserv. It would take hours to read them all, even the banter was fantastic and an art form itself. Remember the Haikumatic? I was never a fan, but it is probably like recalling the early days of Saturday Night Live. The early days of the bonsai forum had that kind of talent. Do you get a glimpse of why I want to hit the monitor with a baseball bat whenever I see a birthday greeting?


Before there was a public "Internet" before pictures could be posted, there was bulletin boards and efnet, undernet, and the likes where there were "rooms" titled for interests. There were many bonsai rooms and much discussion that took place, I wonder if anyone ever thought to save any of this early history as you have?



Will
 
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"The amazing thing is i can travel between all of them with just a click of the mouse.
Amazingly easy, is it not?

Carl Bergstrom used to have the habit of telling people that the Internet is like a television, if you don't like what is on, change the channel, just don't sit there and scream at the screen. ;)

Networks, like forums, should want to put content up that people will enjoy, learn from, and come back for more of. There are many different types of people, which is why you can find The Loony Tunes, Reality TV, and The Discovery Channel all playing at anytime of the day.

The issue we are discussing is why some forums lean toward the loony tune programming, some toward the reality tv, and some toward the Discovery Channel? Is there room for all? Certainly.

Myself, I am more of a Discovery Channel person when it comes to bonsai forums, but I do switch the channel to Loony Tunes once in awhile for a laugh on-line. ;)


Will
 

Brent

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Quotes by Will Heath

"But why is it winning? Is the problem with the current members of any forum that actually contribute to it, is it with the moderators who allow it, or is it both? One can't help but to think that if such content was ignored, not responded to, or quickly moved to a "silly section" or deleted, it would not exist at all. I think the best explanation is that a lot of current participants in forums come, not so much for bonsai and sharing information on the art, as they do for conversation, comradeship, to feel as if they belong to a group, this is a powerful thing."

Will, I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I get the distinct impression from the moderators at BT, BC, and BS. The moderators there seem to pretty much run the show, not intentionally, but they post an enormous number of posts and this sets the agenda. None of these folks seems to be very far advanced in bonsai as far as I can tell. They don't really need to be to be moderators, but domination of the posting by this group really lowers the bar of the quality of the site. I understand the dilemma, one doesn't want to leave a newbie question dangling. I think the better system is to have a benign dictator like Bnut, and let the chips fall where they may. If I ran a forum, that's certainly what I would do.

"We have a couple forums to look to, take one, IBC, in which not a lot of silliness happens and there is a lot of posts daily, some serious and a lot from some of the most experienced players in the business. You don't see the happy birthday threads or the personal attacks, ego head butting, and other such silliness there, or at least not as much as with some other forums. Yet, it has become more of a gallery that one can comment on than a informational, educational forum. It has changed a lot since the old days you talk of Brent, why?"

The easy answer here is that Jim Lewis simply won't allow any silliness or personal attacks. Although, I like the guy, his style does have a chilling effect. I have talked to numerous people who won't post there because of some unfortunate exchange, or fear of one. This has dried up a lot of the spontaneity. The IBC still has the greatest number of professional and otherwise knowledgeable bonsai practitioners. It is my hope that it will arise from it's slumber to rule again. Just one or a few individuals can set the tone, make a forum, or even ruin it. I still can't believe how bad BC got after you got bounced. I won't pull any punches, you can generate a terrific amount of serious bonsai discussion, but your manner has often brought out the worst in people as well, and perhaps the worst in you. I am certainly glad to see that that is changing. Overall you are a valuable asset. You just have to learn how to bite your tongue!

"My theory is commercialism. I believe that commercialism is behind most of the silliness on many forums. I believe that many forums have went the route of at least trying to cover expenses and at the most, trying to make a profit. So why is this bad?...."

That's an interesting point. I never thought about it in those terms, although I truly subscribe to your thesis in regard to our economic system in general. Just look at what it has done for TV. I don't think it is intentional, but as Noam Chomsky says, it doesn't matter if something is truly a conspiracy if it acts like one.

"Beginners are a valuable commodity to the commercial forum and some go to great lengths to keep them as a captive audience...."

They are a valuable asset period. I was the one who always argued for the IBC to maintain the link to the great unwashed at rec.arts.bonsai. I didn't want it to turn into some high falutin elite forum, but it did eventually anyway, which is probably the reason that I drifted away from it. New blood is essential to discussion, otherwise it gets old and stale really quickly. Sure, we have to anwer the same questions 800 times a year, but this makes us constantly reevaluate what we know. Concepts change, even accepted basic principles can change over time. Beginners bring us rare gems along with tons of pony poop. It's up to us to figure out which is which. I hope no one is intrepreting this thread as that I am not in favor of newbies. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I just don't want a forum that is run FOR beginners and BY beginners. Maybe this is where your point of commercialism comes in. I think we should talk over the level of beginners most of the time, otherwise how will they ever learn? I didn't have any luck pushing this philosophy when teaching school either.


"The need to entertain beginners and keep them loyal seems to led to such things as 20 dollar limit styling contests, pipe cleaner bonsai contests, happy birthday threads, and giving aspiring bonsaists advice and information that may make them "feel good" now, but helps little in the long run."

(Sigh) Yes, so true. I can't tell you how many times I have critiqued a beginner's stick in a pot and left them wondering and a little wiser rather than pissed off. All it takes is a bit of sensitivity, and for the most part, that is what I see on all the forums. Rarely do I see a comment that is really rude like "Take it back to the store and get your money back." But to read the views of a lot of newbies, you would think that this is happening all the time. I don't believe it. I think the blame lies mostly in the attitude of our audience, but hey, if it's too hot, get out of the kitchen. This isn't a therapy forum for the learning challenged. Some of these folks need serious attitude adjustments. I just let this stuff slide. I figure I give it my best shot, and I refused to be drawn in. If you think Superthrive is the best thing since sliced bread, go for it.


"Don't get me wrong, beginners should be nurtured, their questions should be answered, and their needs should be met. But by letting the income potential of members dictate what happens, what is allowed, what is said on a forum helps no one but the forum owner. Beginners need to be nurtured, they need to be given honest guidance, they do not need to be catered to."

Precisely. Hopefully the commercial element won't come into play here.


"Personally, I have all but given up on doing virtuals on this forum anymore after being razed for doing so by people who state that virtuals are much easier than bonsai..."

But you can't do this. It's not fair to the rest of us. You have let the will of a few individuals (I won't condemn them, there's always two sides to a story) dictate your life and what the rest of us can learn from you. Like I used to tell my good friend Crystal who was tortured by her family members: "You let them push your buttons. But they are your buttons. The choice is really yours, you can empower them by letting them force your behavior, or you can refuse to play the game." Which is another way of saying what I said earlier. Susie likes to say "What you feed grows", which is even more succinct. These are the kinds of lessons we need to learn if internet communication is to succeed.


"Last year I had taken the time to write two tutorials on creating virtuals in Photoshop. I purposely made them easy to follow and included dozens of screen shots so that anyone with the program could create virtuals in a short amount of time. They are still posted for those interested, here."

I will leave this up here so there is another chance to see it. There was another tutorial on another site that did the same thing with Photshop and GIMP as well, which was great for me because I am on a Linux computer.


"People would consistently post advice and comments in that section, not giving Walter the first right of reply. There was also problems with people posting material for critique that was not up to the standards laid forth by Walter himself. Why was this allowed to continue? "

This should not have been allowed to continue. This is where a benign dictator policy works best, to hell with the advertising. Some people can't see their noses in front of their faces. Gardenweb committed the same sin. By not allowing ANY sort of commercialization (other than their own), not even in a sig line, they pissed off people like me to the point that anyone with any knowledge about bonsai refused to post any more. What they didn't get was that I drew one hell of lot more people to their site than I stole as customers. And look at Gardenweb now.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

PS: Hey! What do you know, a real discussion, and no one interested except me and Will.
 
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