How much is too much?

[Paradox]

Seeing other threads about styling various trees, I have to wonder about how much can you safely take off an otherwise healthy and vigorous tree at the right time?

I know that maples and many deciduous can be trunk chopped with little to issues and bounce back vigorously.

There is some indication that boxwood in cooler climates can also tolerate this.

What about pines junipers? People have said that junipers have their energy stored in their foliage, yet Ive seen people like Rob take off a ton of foliage when doing a styling and the tree lives.

And Pines? What is safe? Id imagine it is probably species specific.

This is something I am struggling to get a handle on. I am always so afraid of doing too much but seeing what some other people do to their trees, I suspect I could take off more than I am and still be fine?

Anyone have any advice regarding this? I would like to hear from some of the more experienced people about their experience.

Thanks

 

[Vance Wood]

Seeing other threads about styling various trees, I have to wonder about how much can you safely take off an otherwise healthy and vigorous tree at the right time?

I know that maples and many deciduous can be trunk chopped with little to issues and bounce back vigorously.

There is some indication that boxwood in cooler climates can also tolerate this.

What about pines junipers? People have said that junipers have their energy stored in their foliage, yet Ive seen people like Rob take off a ton of foliage when doing a styling and the tree lives.

And Pines? What is safe? Id imagine it is probably species specific.

This is something I am struggling to get a handle on. I am always so afraid of doing too much but seeing what some other people do to their trees, I suspect I could take off more than I am and still be fine?

Anyone have any advice regarding this? I would like to hear from some of the more experienced people about their experience.

Thanks

I hate to give you this answer but as is often the case it depends------- It depends on the species, it depends on the time of year, it depends on the age of the tree, It depends on the overall health of the tree and it depends on the courage and skill of the grower. I hear a lot of conflicting information here about a lot of trees. There is hardly a tree used for bonsai you cannot get at least two differing points of view on its care and cultivation.

In major reductions 50% is just about the limit. Going more than that takes knowing what you are doing. I have reduced Junipers by 60-65% with no problems, I have reduced down Pines by that much and gotten away with it. Yes you are right it can be a species specific issue.

 

[Paradox]

I hate to give you this answer but as is often the case it depends------- It depends on the species, it depends on the time of year, it depends on the age of the tree, It depends on the overall health of the tree and it depends on the courage and skill of the grower. I hear a lot of conflicting information here about a lot of trees. There is hardly a tree used for bonsai you cannot get at least two differing points of view on its care and cultivation.

Ok, Im not all that surprised at this answer to be honest.....
I was just hoping for some kind of advice but I realize that it would be difficult to give.
Ive got a feeling I could do more to my trees than I am and therefore reduce some of the development time that Ive subjected myself to.

I guess this is just something one learns with experience.

 

[edprocoat]

It is species specific, say that ten times as fast as you can ! I know that Ficus, Bouganvillea, Chinese Elm varieties, and most tropicals for that matter can be chopped to a stub without skipping a beat just about any time of year. Cotoneaster, Berberry, and Bald Cypress are others that respond well to chops but they are more seasonal as far as timing goes. These are the only ones I have had experience with chops, but there are plenty of threads here by Al (Smoke) detailing the chops he has done on maples that have responded well. I doubt you could pull it off with most conifer types and I am known for killing pines .....

ed

 

[Dav4]

Ok, Im not all that surprised at this answer to be honest.....
I was just hoping for some kind of advice but I realize that it would be difficult to give.
Ive got a feeling I could do more to my trees than I am and therefore reduce some of the development time that Ive subjected myself to.

I guess this is just something one learns with experience.

Yes. I found after doing this for a while, having lots of trees at different stages in their development and having mastered their horticultural needs, that I was willing to push some of the less developed trees more. Whether it's root work, canopy pruning, or wiring/bending, what I'm willing to do now vs what I was doing 10 years ago are light years apart...I think it's a natural progression in the hobby.

This is a shimpaku I worked on this past summer. It easily had 80-90% of its foliage removed. It's sitting out on the bench right now and is doing just fine. It's seen temps as low as 21 F twice so far this fall with no protection, too...junipers are tough and can really take a lot of abuse ( though I don't think letting a juniper freeze solid is abuse)

 

[youngsai]

This is a super important question for me as well, and it really seems that the answer must be one that varies so wildly as to be impossible for anyone but the experienced individual to gauge.

In other words, trust your instincts. This sounds insensitive but having killed a few, I see what was obviously too much work. I have also seen others that survived heavy work so I have also seen what is the right amount of work. I think there can be guidelines but never a precise answer. For me, knowing the range of too much minus just enough is the range I need to carefully work in . For me, a healthy Chinese juniper filled with roots from a nursery can be reduced by eighty percent if I leave the roots alone. Immediately after this work, they get very thirsty and burn easily. So shade made almost daily watering help reestablish the plant. Elms are beasts, I have never successfully killed an elm yet and not for a lack of effort!

 

[Vance Wood]

This is a super important question for me as well, and it really seems that the answer must be one that varies so wildly as to be impossible for anyone but the experienced individual to gauge.

In other words, trust your instincts. This sounds insensitive but having killed a few, I see what was obviously too much work. I have also seen others that survived heavy work so I have also seen what is the right amount of work. I think there can be guidelines but never a precise answer. For me, knowing the range of too much minus just enough is the range I need to carefully work in . For me, a healthy Chinese juniper filled with roots from a nursery can be reduced by eighty percent if I leave the roots alone. Immediately after this work, they get very thirsty and burn easily. So shade made almost daily watering help reestablish the plant. Elms are beasts, I have never successfully killed an elm yet and not for a lack of effort!

There is another issue associated with this and that is the balance between top and roots. I can't believe I am actually bringing this up knowing the kind of fire storm it may cause but I have found that you can, and in some cases must, balance the resources between roots and vegetive growth. Some adhere to the concept that if you remove a lot of vegetive (top, the green stuff) growth all of the roots you have left will cause the remaining growth to take off like a rocket. Some will suggest that the opposite is true the top will die trying to support the root system that is just too big for its resources. There is the conundrum, which is right?

 

[youngsai]

Vance I see what your saying but this should be easy to solve right? for trees that rely on their foliage the balance makes sense. For species that are reliant on roots, the more roots the better. This would account for the fact that people disagree on this topic, and also account for what I see empirically. For junipers, I can do far more work and expect survival if I leave the roots alone. However, the more I remove from the foliage, the more I need to water immediately after. Pines are the opposite empirically, i tried the same % removing foliage and the tree died, which may be because of what you said, the balance.

So just to sum up (for discussion sake) I think that the argument of balancing foliage to root removal may have a solution in the theory that it is different species to species, depending on whether the species is foliage or root dependent for growth...

 

[Poink88]

The critical message is balancing foliage with root mass. Finding the perfect ratio per specie may be tricky but thankfully it looks more like a broad range than a single value.

I am a "chopper" so I mostly end up with stumps w/ negligible or even zero foliage and my trees look okay so far. That said, I am juniper/pine challenged and know I cannot treat them the same way I do my broad leaf.

 

[october]

The best answer is that there is no real answer. I have a counter example for every example given in this thread. I have reduced juniper's branches and foliage by 50% and did no root work to balance it out and my junipers were fine. On the other hand, I have done major stylings on junipers, then a couple weeks later, did major root work and a repot and the trees were fine. Yet another example, I have reduced junipers upper foliage by 30% and the root system by about 70%.

Of course there are some things to be considered. How old is the tree? How healthy is the tree? When is the last time the tree was worked on? Is it the right season? Does one have the knowledge/experience when making large reductions, to know how to cause the least damage to get the maximum effect.

Lastly, this is something that I have picked up over the years. I think it also depends on the individual tree, not only or necessarily the species, but sometimes the actual tree. For example, my hinoki cypress. I have had it for 12 years. Way back when, I made every mistake in the book with this tree. This being on a tree that is notroious for being one of the least fogiving trees. I have had junipers that live for years in the middle of scale infestations and/or mites. Yet sometimes, one tree will be unaffected. Some trees of the same species get fungal diseases and die, yet, some will hang on and survive (with a little help from us of course). For lack of a better, I think each tree has a personality or thresh hold.

Over the Summer I attended a bonsai group meeting. The dreaded juniper fungus came up. One person had said that once they get it, there was only one chemical that could stop. Otherwise that was the end. Now, I can tell you I most certainly saved 2 junipers who where near death and had the fungus. How??? I believe 2 things. First, by rotating different fungicides, not the one that the other member was talking about. Second, as crazy as it may sound, the resilience of the tree. When they first got the fungus, I swore that it was not going to take these 2 trees. It took about 1 1/2 years plus, but we beat it. We, as in the trees and myself.

Here is your prime example of everything above. This pic was taken right after the new styling. This was one of the trees at death's door for almost 2 years because of the fungus. Furthermore, this was a cascade. I chopped the entire cascade branch off, which was like 40% of the tree. I did this in/around July, when they recommend not to. Also, I slip potted it, but did no root work to counter balance. This is why I feel it depends on the actual tree itself.

Rob

 

[Paradox]

Thank you for the responses and the discussion.

I suppose the best thing I can do is take each tree individually and do as much as I dare to at the time and see what happens. Over time, hopefully Ill get a better handle on this with experience.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thank you for the responses and the discussion.

I suppose the best thing I can do is take each tree individually and do as much as I dare to at the time and see what happens. Over time, hopefully Ill get a better handle on this with experience.

That is honestly the real secret of bonsai; learning to feel and sense what's going on with your trees.

 

[crust]

That is honestly the real secret of bonsai; learning to feel and sense what's going on with your trees.

----A profound truth, for sure.

 

[fore]

So true guys. I cut back my RMJ 40-50% this spring, it reverted to juvenile foliage and now I have to wait 1-2yrs to recover. I definitely am learning 'how much is too much'

 

[Vance Wood]

So true guys. I cut back my RMJ 40-50% this spring, it reverted to juvenile foliage and now I have to wait 1-2yrs to recover. I definitely am learning 'how much is too much'

Did you cut back the roots as well?

 

[fore]

Did you cut back the roots as well?

No Vance, just foliage.

 

[Dav4]

So true guys. I cut back my RMJ 40-50% this spring, it reverted to juvenile foliage and now I have to wait 1-2yrs to recover. I definitely am learning 'how much is too much'

My experience with RMJ tells me that, at least here in N. GA, they are very likely to have juvenile foliage with any kind of manipulation of roots or foliage. My two large RMJs have both been re-potted and pruned in the last year and the foliage is mostly juvenile. Not really a big deal for me as the density is increasing in the canopy and I like the bluish hue. Still, I don't plan on re-potting for at least 5-6 yeas and maybe longer, so we will see what happens as they slowly become root bound.

 

[fore]

My experience with RMJ tells me that, at least here in N. GA, they are very likely to have juvenile foliage with any kind of manipulation of roots or foliage. My two large RMJs have both been re-potted and pruned in the last year and the foliage is mostly juvenile. Not really a big deal for me as the density is increasing in the canopy and I like the bluish hue. Still, I don't plan on re-potting for at least 5-6 yeas and maybe longer, so we will see what happens as they slowly become root bound.

This is my first worked rmj, so I'm def. still learning. Peter Warren told me after the work, that had I cut no more than 30%, it should stay mature. This one need repotting badly, but I don't really want stress it again next yr so will prob. just leave it. Just takes longer to water and drain, but I'm not concerned. I'm pretty sure it's been in this pot for 3-4yrs.

 

[Vance Wood]

No Vance, just foliage.

It makes me wonder what would have happened had you done both. Just a thought.

 

[fore]

It makes me wonder what would have happened had you done both. Just a thought.

It was so vigorous and healthy I bet I could've done both. But, I've had many people tell me only one insult per yr. I'm starting the Juniper Course with Ryan in late feb. so I'll def. have a much better handle as to to level of work they can tolerate over time.