how much you estimate the size of these trunks ?

akhater

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I have a huge pyracantha in my backyard so, in theory, I could layer out any diameter of trunk I want up to 10 cm (maybe more)

I was looking for pics of pyracantha bonsais on the internet and I found the 2 below

So

1) What would you estimate the trunk diameter in each to be
2) Their respective total height ?
3) How many years are needed to train these starting with the right trunk size ? (to something decent not complete)

robert_kempinski_shohin_pyracantha_berries.jpg


DSC01825.jpg
 

milehigh_7

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Oh yea Search for Smoke's posts on pyracantha. He has done some real fine work on them.
 

akhater

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Profile updated thanks for the notice,

the question was actually about the ones in the pictures so I know how thick I should layer

I say maybe the first pic is about 2 or 3 cm and the second in the 7 cm range ? does it sound correct ?
 

milehigh_7

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Lebanon as in country? Exciting place if so...


Anyway, the mantra is always, "decide how tall of a tree you want." Let's say you want a 12" tree then per that calculator you would want at least a 2" caliper at the base. This is one of the "rules" of bonsai. This ratio guideline allows for a convincing scale to help give the appearance of a larger tree.

So the caliper + taper + movement is what you should look for in a trunk.

Hopefully the more experienced ones will fill in blanks that I missed or correct me where I err.
 

akhater

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Lebanon as in country? Exciting place if so...

That's the place ;)

Anyway, the mantra is always, "decide how tall of a tree you want." Let's say you want a 12" tree then per that calculator you would want at least a 2" caliper at the base. This is one of the "rules" of bonsai. This ratio guideline allows for a convincing scale to help give the appearance of a larger tree.

So the caliper + taper + movement is what you should look for in a trunk.

Hopefully the more experienced ones will fill in blanks that I missed or correct me where I err.

Thanks for this but, for example, the second tree in the pictures cannot be done with 20 cm high tree can it ? or at least it looks like bigger

Sorry if I am becoming annoying with my questions but I do need nursing at this stage

thanks
 

rockm

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Trying to apply mathematical formulas to bonsai can result in a rather odd looking tree.

It all boils down to what "looks right" to the eye. The trees in the photos are not all that large. Some are shohin (on the small side). The illusion of a bigger tree is because of the stout trunks. The eye is "fooled" by the mass of the trunk and its details. I doubt whoever grew these trees used a calculator in their composition...
 

Smoke

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Here are some dimensions of my pyracantha. The tree is 74 cm tall and the trunk is 20 cm at the soil line and 10 cm at 6 cm above the soil.
 

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akhater

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Here are some dimensions of my pyracantha. The tree is 74 cm tall and the trunk is 20 cm at the soil line and 20 cm at 6 cm above the soil.

Impressive !

why it doesn't have any leafs ? mine doesn't lose its leafs
 

milehigh_7

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Trying to apply mathematical formulas to bonsai can result in a rather odd looking tree.

It all boils down to what "looks right" to the eye. The trees in the photos are not all that large. Some are shohin (on the small side). The illusion of a bigger tree is because of the stout trunks. The eye is "fooled" by the mass of the trunk and its details. I doubt whoever grew these trees used a calculator in their composition...

Simply quoting the ol' 6:1 "rule". The specimen Smoke posted well exceeds that. What I have always read is that the "rules" are a good place to start. I am sure there are differences of opinion. It is really a manifestation of the Phi phenomenon and the point at which apparent movement is created. That exact point, I am sure, is variable.
 

Vance Wood

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The general rule of thumb is to establish a ratio between the size of the trunk and the height of the tree. Bonsai is the art of establishing an illusion of a full grown tree in a small pot. In order to accomplish this you must do some of the things to your tree that help establish this illusion. Probably the most important basic concept is to provide, in miniature, the kind of proportions seen in older trees in nature. Every thing in bonsai starts and ends with the trunk. Without a decent trunk development the rest of the tree will never work artistically.

If you take a ruler and your favorite bonsai book or magazine you will notice that the ratios of 1:6 seems to be the minimum where the height is six times greater than the base is wide. Any thing smaller at the base or taller in height will look like a young tree in need of a good deal of development unless it is Literati. On the other hand the ratio 1:3; the height being 3 times the base of the tree seems to be the largest trunk proportion to height ratio other wise the tree begins to look un-natural, contrived and not so pleasing unless you really like the fat ones. This is not a rule but neither is the golden mean and many will adhere following that equation because it is naturally occurring,-- so are these trunk size proportions incidentally. It does not matter how tall the tree is, or how fat the trunk is. What matter is what proportion exists between the base of the trunk and the apex of the tree. You can have a tree that is three inches tall and a base that is one inch across and it will be every bit as dynamic and convincing, as a tree 24 inches tall and eight inches across the base of the trunk.
 

Smoke

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Impressive !

why it doesn't have any leafs ? mine doesn't lose its leafs

Mine doesn't lose its leafs either. I lose them myself. My leafs get white with mineral deposits by years end.
 

akhater

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The general rule of thumb is to establish a ratio between the size of the trunk and the height of the tree. Bonsai is the art of establishing an illusion of a full grown tree in a small pot. In order to accomplish this you must do some of the things to your tree that help establish this illusion. Probably the most important basic concept is to provide, in miniature, the kind of proportions seen in older trees in nature. Every thing in bonsai starts and ends with the trunk. Without a decent trunk development the rest of the tree will never work artistically.

If you take a ruler and your favorite bonsai book or magazine you will notice that the ratios of 1:6 seems to be the minimum where the height is six times greater than the base is wide. Any thing smaller at the base or taller in height will look like a young tree in need of a good deal of development unless it is Literati. On the other hand the ratio 1:3; the height being 3 times the base of the tree seems to be the largest trunk proportion to height ratio other wise the tree begins to look un-natural, contrived and not so pleasing unless you really like the fat ones. This is not a rule but neither is the golden mean and many will adhere following that equation because it is naturally occurring,-- so are these trunk size proportions incidentally. It does not matter how tall the tree is, or how fat the trunk is. What matter is what proportion exists between the base of the trunk and the apex of the tree. You can have a tree that is three inches tall and a base that is one inch across and it will be every bit as dynamic and convincing, as a tree 24 inches tall and eight inches across the base of the trunk.

thank you for taking the time to write all this, i would really like to the see the pic of the tree if possible

Mine doesn't lose its leafs either. I lose them myself. My leafs get white with mineral deposits by years end.

so you remove all leaves yourself ? wow that should be stressing on the tree.

Where does the mineral deposits come from ? misting ?
 

GerhardG

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Hi

If I look at the size of the berries in the pics you can estimate the size of the trunk(?)
On my screen the (yellow) berrie measures 2mm, while on experience I think they are about 7/8mm
Apply a ratio 2:7 or 2:8 to increase the measurement of the trunk base (4cm or 400mm on my screen) and you should have it.

Sorry, it's friday and I'm to beat by this week to do the math for you!:D
 

akhater

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Hi

If I look at the size of the berries in the pics you can estimate the size of the trunk(?)
On my screen the (yellow) berrie measures 2mm, while on experience I think they are about 7/8mm
Apply a ratio 2:7 or 2:8 to increase the measurement of the trunk base (4cm or 400mm on my screen) and you should have it.

Sorry, it's friday and I'm to beat by this week to do the math for you!:D

That's a great idea ! thanks
 

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