How should I go about acquiring Blue Atlas Cedar?

[Adair M]

Good evening Brent!
Yes I know they're babies, and I am not very experienced at grafting.
The stock that has separated, gives the impression to an untrained eye,
that the union is weak and could break in a wind.

I just purchased another grafted BP (Thunbergii Thunderhead) which I was
told the graft was unsightly really, and Adair questioned my purchases of cultivars.
This is why I was replying to his comment on that here. Trying to get his input and
see if I had acquired a much better grafting job. I have an acer palmatum Autumn Moon
that broke at the graft from a wind. I bandaged that and has regrown just fine there.

So you're saying the reverse taper will fill in with bark coming down to soil, in some years. That's good to hear.
Most folks say reverse taper only gets worse with time. Thanks for the input.

As I stated, the reason I don’t like Thunderhead is the buds are about a quarter inch thick. Pencil sized. Or even kindergarten pencil sized! So they will always make coarse growth. Not desirable for bonsai.

So, my point about cultivars is you should know what the characteristics of a cultivar is before you purchase it, and determine if those characteristics are compatible with bonsai cultivation.

So, for instance, “Kishu” and “Itoigawa” are two cultivars of Shimpaku that make very fine tight clouds of foliage. You will never see these at a landscape nursery, they grow too slowly. But you can get them at a speciality bonsai nursery. They’re both cultivars of Shimpaku, yet they’re different. Is one better than the other? Why would I choose one or the other? Why do bonsai nurseries stock both? To obtain the answers to these kinds of questions entails research.

And it gets even worse! The us a “Kirby” strain of Kishu, that some say s better than regular Kishu.
I own a tree that has a special strain of Itoigawa, it reportedly doesn’t go juvenile! Or at least, not easily. Regular Itoigawa goes juvi very easily.

When you get beyond learning the basics, and intermediate skills, and become proficient in bonsai, these nuances might matter. But for most, sticking to the mainline cultivars and varieties is challenge enough.

As Brent said, your new trees are very young. Let them grow for a year to get strong and acclimate to your climate.

Good luck!

 

[JudyB]

Thanks Judy for the well wishes. Either or both, I really don't know. Both I suspect, late pruning
possibly lowering its cold hardiness too. I'm thinking it was September when I pruned most of the branches back.

If it had been a repotting issue, it would have blown the foliage within a couple weeks, so doubtful that it had anything to do with that. They are tough trees, maybe it'll come back.

 

[Japonicus]

As I stated, the reason I don’t like Thunderhead is the buds are about a quarter inch thick. Pencil sized. Or even kindergarten pencil sized! So they will always make coarse growth. Not desirable for bonsai.

So, my point about cultivars is you should know what the characteristics of a cultivar is before you purchase it, and determine if those characteristics are compatible with bonsai cultivation.

So, for instance, “Kishu” and “Itoigawa” are two cultivars of Shimpaku that make very fine tight clouds of foliage. You will never see these at a landscape nursery, they grow too slowly. But you can get them at a speciality bonsai nursery. They’re both cultivars of Shimpaku, yet they’re different. Is one better than the other? Why would I choose one or the other? Why do bonsai nurseries stock both? To obtain the answers to these kinds of questions entails research.

And it gets even worse! The us a “Kirby” strain of Kishu, that some say s better than regular Kishu.
I own a tree that has a special strain of Itoigawa, it reportedly doesn’t go juvenile! Or at least, not easily. Regular Itoigawa goes juvi very easily.

When you get beyond learning the basics, and intermediate skills, and become proficient in bonsai, these nuances might matter. But for most, sticking to the mainline cultivars and varieties is challenge enough.

As Brent said, your new trees are very young. Let them grow for a year to get strong and acclimate to your climate.

Good luck!

Ok thanks for having a look at it Adair. Just wanted to get your input on the reverse taper
and split at the graft. Didn't appear to happen in shipping, but possible. So if there was concern
now would be the only time to address that.

Brent said I should be surprised at the branch options when ordered, and they are that, nice branches.
Requested the 2 bottom internodes/whorls (Brocade) to be less than 5" apart...they are less than 2" Thanks @Brent
Again, I did have a maples graft snap in the wind before with a similar looking graft, (it appeared to be shipping damage)
planted it, and within a couple weeks it broke.

What will become of the upwards jetting stock at the union where it separated or didn't take, on that side?
The opposite side looks strong.

 

[Brent]

Good evening Brent!
Yes I know they're babies, and I am not very experienced at grafting.
The stock that has separated, gives the impression to an untrained eye,
that the union is weak and could break in a wind.

I just purchased another grafted BP (Thunbergii Thunderhead) which I was
told the graft was unsightly really, and Adair questioned my purchases of cultivars.
This is why I was replying to his comment on that here. Trying to get his input and
see if I had acquired a much better grafting job. I have an acer palmatum Autumn Moon
that broke at the graft from a wind. I bandaged that and has regrown just fine there.

So you're saying the reverse taper will fill in with bark coming down to soil, in some years. That's good to hear.
Most folks say reverse taper only gets worse with time. Thanks for the input.

You need to know a little about grafting to understand what you are seeing in a 2 yr (very young) graft. JBP are almost universally grafted using a "side veneer" graft. That's what I do. You can read about this on our website in one of the articles. It is performed by making a slice down the side of the understock that goes about 1/3 the way through the stem. This create a wide surface next to the stem and a shorter surface at the 'flap'. The scion is cut in a wedge shape to slip into the cut on the understock. I make very short grafts very low so you won't see them. So, they are a little delicate and putting a stake next to the stem is not a bad idea, although having a graft pull out for me is a rarity. Anyhow, The two sides of the graft will not usually be completely matched on both sides, maybe one in 20. No problem, the graft will take if only one side mates, using the side next to the stem. This leaves part or all of the flap to die off. That is what you are seeing. I usually trim these off before shipping when I trim back the understock. It can be done now carefully with a branch cutter. The scion bark will 'roll over' completely the understock stem at the union is just a year or two, and mine usually go right down to the ground so that you can't see a graft at all. Look at my specimen page to see the grafts on some of the mature plants.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com

 

[Vin]

They're Babies!

In a few years the bark from the scion will surround the stem and go right to the ground. I have large 'Brocade' where the graft is virtually undectible. The 'Brocade' will begin to bark up in just another year or two. I think you need to look at some more of the god awful grafts you find on the market to appreciate what you have.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com

Brent,

I've heard conflicting data on Blue Atlas Cedar. I'm in the Florida Panhandle and I've heard both that they can and they can't survive here. What say you?

Thanks,

Vince

 

[Japonicus]

You need to know a little about grafting to understand what you are seeing in a 2 yr (very young) graft. JBP are almost universally grafted using a "side veneer" graft. That's what I do. You can read about this on our website in one of the articles. It is performed by making a slice down the side of the understock that goes about 1/3 the way through the stem. This create a wide surface next to the stem and a shorter surface at the 'flap'. The scion is cut in a wedge shape to slip into the cut on the understock. I make very short grafts very low so you won't see them. So, they are a little delicate and putting a stake next to the stem is not a bad idea, although having a graft pull out for me is a rarity. Anyhow, The two sides of the graft will not usually be completely matched on both sides, maybe one in 20. No problem, the graft will take if only one side mates, using the side next to the stem. This leaves part or all of the flap to die off. That is what you are seeing. I usually trim these off before shipping when I trim back the understock. It can be done now carefully with a branch cutter. The scion bark will 'roll over' completely the understock stem at the union is just a year or two, and mine usually go right down to the ground so that you can't see a graft at all. Look at my specimen page to see the grafts on some of the mature plants.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com

Thank you Brent.
The WP to BP stock in my avatar and all the maples I had over the years have had symmetrically even central grafts
and I've never experienced the side veneer type graft. Good to know about the wing die off that I should trim it
before the desirable corky bark encroaches it. Looks like that's what you've done with the cedar just prior to shipping.
Learnt something new today. That's a good thing. Looking forward to working with both of these.

Since the trees were so loose in their soil, probably the package was thrown, (inside sorting at PO)
should I remove the pots and plant all in ground for a couple years? I really want to force lower
ramification on the cedar, and as long as the current leader is left on, that will not happen.
So I need to start a couple sacrifice extensions from lower buds on the trunk.

 

[Gsquared]

So I found some very nice 10 gal blue atlas at a local nursery. Most have trunks about 2-3 in. with branches or small shoots from the lowest parts of the trunk, all the way up (4" or so). All are burlapped and in 10 gal tubs. I've checked out below the string and wrapping on a couple and there wasn't any revers taper I could see. Roots weren't perfectly radiating, but not bad. Cost: $50. The soil inside the bag seems like a field growing clay and loam. Good for ground soil, but not for bonsai. So let's say I buy one of these, would it be better to leave it as is for a couple of years in spite of the heavy soil? Or would it be better to take off the burlap and gently loosen the soil I can and replant it in my standard mix with some extra pumice added in? I am guessing root reduction would not be good right now? My main concern is that the soil is really heavy and I think it would benefit from looser soil. If it came out of the ground this year, would it be best to let it rest or go ahead and re-disturb just a little to create a better environment for future growth? I'm in Oregon, so it is very likely that it was locally grown.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

So I found some very nice 10 gal blue atlas at a local nursery. Most have trunks about 2-3 in. with branches or small shoots from the lowest parts of the trunk, all the way up (4" or so). All are burlapped and in 10 gal tubs. I've checked out below the string and wrapping on a couple and there wasn't any revers taper I could see. Roots weren't perfectly radiating, but not bad. Cost: $50. The soil inside the bag seems like a field growing clay and loam. Good for ground soil, but not for bonsai. So let's say I buy one of these, would it be better to leave it as is for a couple of years in spite of the heavy soil? Or would it be better to take off the burlap and gently loosen the soil I can and replant it in my standard mix with some extra pumice added in? I am guessing root reduction would not be good right now? My main concern is that the soil is really heavy and I think it would benefit from looser soil. If it came out of the ground this year, would it be best to let it rest or go ahead and re-disturb just a little to create a better environment for future growth? I'm in Oregon, so it is very likely that it was locally grown.

Hi Gsquared,
Gee, for $10 each I would buy them all, LOL. Hey, they are a favorite of mine.
So here is my opinion, and others are likely to share theirs also -
My concern is the clay soil, as it would hold loads of water in a large pot and you run the risk of some or lots of root rot etc. With that said I would tempted to buy at least 2 and try removing half to 3/4 of the clay for the first year or two then remove the rest of tree speaks to you it is healthy. Other tree you do real tentative and only remove a small amount of the clay, and watch your watering etc.

I look forward to hearing from others, as my guessing method may be WAY too concervative.
Hope you buy at least one as these always make great bonsai.
Charles

 

[Adair M]

So I found some very nice 10 gal blue atlas at a local nursery. Most have trunks about 2-3 in. with branches or small shoots from the lowest parts of the trunk, all the way up (4" or so). All are burlapped and in 10 gal tubs. I've checked out below the string and wrapping on a couple and there wasn't any revers taper I could see. Roots weren't perfectly radiating, but not bad. Cost: $50. The soil inside the bag seems like a field growing clay and loam. Good for ground soil, but not for bonsai. So let's say I buy one of these, would it be better to leave it as is for a couple of years in spite of the heavy soil? Or would it be better to take off the burlap and gently loosen the soil I can and replant it in my standard mix with some extra pumice added in? I am guessing root reduction would not be good right now? My main concern is that the soil is really heavy and I think it would benefit from looser soil. If it came out of the ground this year, would it be best to let it rest or go ahead and re-disturb just a little to create a better environment for future growth? I'm in Oregon, so it is very likely that it was locally grown.

Transition them to bonsai soil just like the guys who collect wild yamadori do: build a box for the root ball and use pumice as the new soil. Balled and burlapped trees ARE collected! From a grow field!

 

[Dav4]

Transition them to bonsai soil just like the guys who collect wild yamadori do: build a box for the root ball and use pumice as the new soil. Balled and burlapped trees ARE collected! From a grow field!

Right, collected from a grow field of heavy clay intended to keep the root ball together after collection... a super PITA to remove that clay from the roots and replace with proper soil. I used to use a hose to slowly wash it away from the roots, essentially bare rooting 1/3 of the root ball every year or two... took several hours each session.

 

[Gsquared]

Thanks for the tips folks. If they were $10 each I would buy them all to disperse to club members or something. No, these are $50. Not much more but I don't need 9 or 11. Just one will do.

So that makes sense that they are newly collected. Logic says leave the roots alone, but good horticultural practice makes sense to remove as much soil as possible for future development and health.

 

[Japonicus]

Tree looks dead

@Japonicus
Don't give up on it yet, Atlas cedars are the only conifers (besides the deciduous ones) I've seen come back after dropping every single needle.

Thank Heavens I did not give up on this glauc.
For the last 3 weeks it began with little light greenish dots along the branches pretty much doubling in size weekly.
We were pushing 90ºF yesterday (snow/rain mix coming, daytime high dropping nearly 50º) and has pushed growth across the board, accelerating tree pollen.




Time for a nice shot of Holly Tone before tomorrows daylong downpour.

 

[cbroad]

Hell yeah! I know that's a good feeling!!!

 

[Japonicus]

Hell yeah! I know that's a good feeling!!!

Yeh! It does have that warm fuzzy feelin

Been meaning to post pics of it and forgot to take any till today, foolin with maples going in ground
just when everybody else is getting theirs out of the ground.

 

[Japonicus]

So here's the Glauc I got from @Brent . I love the foliage, though not as rambunctious as the typical green variety
I just love that blue PUNCH!

It needs more punch lower down yes.

Wouldn't I want to dictate at an early age where to grow freely rather than the entire tree?
For instance, the one I've been growing in ground a couple years I posted earlier today.
Branches above the number one branch are too strong, and #1 is too weak.
That was the main reason I cut it back the way I did last year, to force growth lower down.

I think this Summer I'll pinch the tips of the strong ones allowing the rest free will, and prune in Fall.
Then pot it up or plant it next year.

 

[Adair M]

This fall, wire the trunk to give it some movement, or make it straight if you want a formal upright. I wouldn’t pinch anything right now. Just wire, and let it grow, get strong and build a root system.

Once you have a good robust root system, you’ll get strong growth. THEN, you can cut back. For now, you just have a stick. Let it grow!

 

[t_fareal]

updates????

 

[Japonicus]

updates????

On the Blue Atlas from EGGW? No.
The one I got has a terrible nebari

I would have wired it this Fall, but will be cutting it back considerably, and what's left to wire thereafter will be supple
enough to wire later on. I will be potting it up 1st well before the reduction.


The one in post 72 that made the come back, is still there in the ground. Needs to be grafted lower onto itself...I think.