How should I go about acquiring Blue Atlas Cedar?

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
Nice! I've been thinking about adding one of the blue atlas cedars - I assumed Brent was out because they were off his site. I'll have to check in with him.
Ah, I thought so too. A little digging and you'll find item 2155 under the "availability list".
His email did say he grafted them low, forgot to add to the catalog and that he has a very limited number.

Now you guys have me thinking...if I really like the cultivar 'Glauca' he has, I'll probably also try one of the
seedlings @Osoyoung linked item #2150, and add...Al to see if that helps blue it up somewhat.
Worth a try to be on its own roots aye? I just like the idea of the genetics taking control and not
having to always add something, to change it to something else.

You know I'm going to want to start forcing ramification ASAP...
 

mcpesq817

Omono
Messages
1,810
Reaction score
499
Location
VA
USDA Zone
7
I have a couple of his green atlas cedars that I’m growing out. I bought them as 1 gallon trees. Very nice, really nice green color to the needles. Interestingly, one of my trunks is darker brown/gray and looks more like it’s barking up than the typical smooth steel gray color you see on these trunks typically.
 

KiwiPlantGuy

Omono
Messages
1,051
Reaction score
1,352
Location
New Zealand
USDA Zone
9a
Hey Charles, thanks for the reply.
Yeh, we had acid soil where I grew up, and a 20' spreading bed of hydrangea that was always blue.
Never fed it so maybe all the beech and red oak leaves lent a hand in the colour. The beech leaves
tasted sweeter than the oaks when smoked, that much I do know lol.
https://www.keystonepestsolutions.c...MI7fr15uaU2QIV1DqBCh2fpQcFEAQYAyABEgIbLfD_BwE
Found this ^ aluminum sulphate, not sure I would need it, the Espoma I use is 1% Mg and 3% Ca, 5% Sulphur.
If I ever find the blue hinting at giving way to green, I will try the Aluminum sulphate.
At what rate would you use on your own bonsai?

Hi Japonicus,
So, um I think you might be on the wrong track re Aluminium Sulphate for Cedars. I would stick with the “epsom salts”. Only a trick we use for hydrangeas in nursery production.
I don’t know if I am correct but the Aluminium sulphate “heavily” acidifies the soil/potting mix, so probably not good for Cedars also. :).
Charles
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
Hi Japonicus,
So, um I think you might be on the wrong track re Aluminium Sulphate for Cedars. I would stick with the “epsom salts”. Only a trick we use for hydrangeas in nursery production.
I don’t know if I am correct but the Aluminium sulphate “heavily” acidifies the soil/potting mix, so probably not good for Cedars also. :).
Charles
Gotchya. Nothin like experimentation gone bad. Not like I have 100 plants to tinker around with, thanks.
I think they'll do fine with a varied diet for staying true to species in hue. They'll get some fish/seaweed feed too.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
Hi @JudyB , you mentioned in AZbonsai's thread about these trees that they need to be potted early
else they may cast most their needles and recover if healthy.
The one I pruned last Summer, in the ground, seems to have done this. All the branches have
SOME blue needles, some more than others. Last Winter was mild, this one so far I think avg.
but have never seen it do this before. Just watered with 1/4 tsp of Superthrive + 1/2 tsp of ProTekt/gal water
after taking this pic. Any thoughts? Too bad, I wanted to remove the apex this year.
full
 

discusmike

Omono
Messages
1,495
Reaction score
553
Location
elkton,MD
USDA Zone
7a
Dont feel bad,ive lost a few in the grown a few cold winters back,broke my heart
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
Tree looks dead
I know right? Well the needles still alive are pliable.
Dont feel bad,ive lost a few in the grown a few cold winters back,broke my heart
Well I pruned it late Sept, and this is the 2nd Winter for sure, that it's been planted here on the SE corner of my home,
no more than 3 Winters. Not sure if it's Winter damage or not. They do well in our location here in ground.
This concerns me for the new purchase, and how it will handle -10-15ºF. when it comes round. We usually get good
warning of such cold spells though, and could be moved to a moldy crawl space in an emergency.
I'm pulling for it, wish it luck.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
Mine succumbed to thr cold n winds
Sorry bout that! Sun loving, mines on the right side of the house but...
for full blast Winter, it's fully exposed on the SE corner which gets all Westerlies full brunt.
If it does rebound...it'll be 2 yrs before I can plan to remove the apex.
I guess next Winter it will be caged because I don't want to disturb the roots now to make it mobile.
Which 1st...two years from now, roots/pot to pond basket, or apex removal and allow remaining branches to extend?
 
Last edited:

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
@Japonicus
Don't give up on it yet, Atlas cedars are the only conifers (besides the deciduous ones) I've seen come back after dropping every single needle.
Judy's input prepared me for the shock I guess. Still very concerning. When I look at the new design and outlook of the profile of this tree now, despite the bulbous graft, I really like where it was going. Would be a shame to lose my 1st Atlas.

LOL @ Certified Hortitorurist
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
About cultivars...

If you are buying cultivars from a bonsai place where the grafts or cuttings were specifically made for bonsai, they’re probably ok to use. It’s the cultivars at the big box stores. And general landscape nurseries stock trees that are more suited for, well, landscaping rather than bonsai.
Good evening Adair. I got the 2 grafts in today. Am I incorrect, about not being impressed with the BP graft?
Out of context for the thread, but ordered them together same time as the 'glauca' (which has a bit better graft)
but the graft is the only "bonsai" trait attended to for the history of this cedar pictured.
full

The BP (Thunbergii brocade) is ~7" and I feel terrible reverse taper for the age. So difficult to give accurate caliper now.
The Cedar is 20" and 1/4" trunk, grow baby grow!
full

The graft appears to have a fresh cut prior to shipping.

full

The roots have an ugly knot balled up atop the soil.
Both trees not firm in soil, very loose, but the medium is coarse and round.
Like perlite but gray 1/4" diameter, with plenty potting soil.

full

To my untrained eye this graft looks very weak. Concerns?

full

The needles atop this tree rather yellow. Does it have the flu?
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
13,751
Reaction score
23,250
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
Hi @JudyB , you mentioned in AZbonsai's thread about these trees that they need to be potted early
else they may cast most their needles and recover if healthy.
The one I pruned last Summer, in the ground, seems to have done this. All the branches have
SOME blue needles, some more than others. Last Winter was mild, this one so far I think avg.
but have never seen it do this before. Just watered with 1/4 tsp of Superthrive + 1/2 tsp of ProTekt/gal water
after taking this pic. Any thoughts? Too bad, I wanted to remove the apex this year.
full
So this is damage from late pruning, or winter damage? The only time I've seen them drop all the leaves, is if you repot them after the root tips start to turn white. They don't like root disturbance and once they start to move, it can cause this. I don't know if this is what's happening to yours. Good luck with it.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
So this is damage from late pruning, or winter damage? The only time I've seen them drop all the leaves, is if you repot them after the root tips start to turn white. They don't like root disturbance and once they start to move, it can cause this. I don't know if this is what's happening to yours. Good luck with it.
Thanks Judy for the well wishes. Either or both, I really don't know. Both I suspect, late pruning
possibly lowering its cold hardiness too. I'm thinking it was September when I pruned most of the branches back.
 

Brent

Mame
Messages
212
Reaction score
250
Location
Lake County, Northern California
They're Babies!

In a few years the bark from the scion will surround the stem and go right to the ground. I have large 'Brocade' where the graft is virtually undectible. The 'Brocade' will begin to bark up in just another year or two. I think you need to look at some more of the god awful grafts you find on the market to appreciate what you have.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
They're Babies!

In a few years the bark from the scion will surround the stem and go right to the ground. I have large 'Brocade' where the graft is virtually undectible. The 'Brocade' will begin to bark up in just another year or two. I think you need to look at some more of the god awful grafts you find on the market to appreciate what you have.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
Good evening Brent!
Yes I know they're babies, and I am not very experienced at grafting.
The stock that has separated, gives the impression to an untrained eye,
that the union is weak and could break in a wind.

I just purchased another grafted BP (Thunbergii Thunderhead) which I was
told the graft was unsightly really, and Adair questioned my purchases of cultivars.
This is why I was replying to his comment on that here. Trying to get his input and
see if I had acquired a much better grafting job. I have an acer palmatum Autumn Moon
that broke at the graft from a wind. I bandaged that and has regrown just fine there.

So you're saying the reverse taper will fill in with bark coming down to soil, in some years. That's good to hear.
Most folks say reverse taper only gets worse with time. Thanks for the input.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,866
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
@Brent I guess the one side taking in the graft is all that's necessary.
It looks to be well healed over and has strength at the union.
As far as taper, I guess it's whether the root stock is faster growing than the cultivar or not.
That will be the determining factor as to whether it gets better or worse over time.
Since you do this yourself, I'm sure that's taken into consideration as a basic cultivation practice
and the choice of cultivar selected.
Looking forward to working with these. I hope I do right by them.
The idea is too get them now for the long haul, not an immediate gratification in 2 or 3 years.
 
Top Bottom