How to Deal with Leggy Itoigawa Juniper

AndyJ

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Please ignore my previous post - I've just learned what happens with the juvenile stuff.
Thanks
 

leatherback

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Re. (5) What happens with the spiky juvenile foliage? Does it kind of turn into nature foliage after a couple of years? Or do I just cut it off at a later date?
Eventually this will start growing scale foliage. The needles in time will turn yellow/brown and you will have to remove the needles. You can actually see this happening on one of your lower branches. I wait long before removing the needles: I find that backbudding often happens between the yellowing needles.

Besides that... To me it feels like you have way too much foliage just hanging down. I would seriously consider removing maybe 25% of the foliage by carefully thinning: pruning of larger green balls hanging down from the main branch structure. Maybe all in all you do not need to make more than 20 cuts, to remove a lot of the green that is shading the inner crown.

Alternatively.. You could connect to one of your clubs in the region, take the tree and have someone in person look at it. I know Tony Tickle is just a few miles down the road from you in Bury; Maybe he is willing to spend a bit of time with you and the tree (But I think he is now trying to make a living of Bonsai so you might have to pay for a lesson).

In the end.. Everyone has an opinion and most will not kill the tree. Question is which one will get you a nice bonsai the fastest. And often a lot depends on how strong the tree is.
 

AndyJ

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Thanks Leather - yeah I just read about the way the mature scale foliage grows out from the spiky juvenile.

Travelling anywhere is very difficult for me as I'm disabled and housebound so I rely on BNut members help to develop my skills
 

Potawatomi13

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3856C7AF-7326-4545-A43D-F8A38DE90AFD.jpeg



Have not seen mentioned or missed; red circled crooked sprout could be great part of contorting trunk/branch in future if cultivated. Personally prize these as found naturally on trees rather than manufactured;).
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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Thanks Brian.

Re. (5) What happens with the spiky juvenile foliage? Does it kind of turn into nature foliage after a couple of years? Or do I just cut it off at a later date?

Thanks again

Andy
Ignore it and it will shed in a couple years. The foliage itself doesn’t change once it has grown, but rather the tree will produce mature foliage instead of juvenile foliage, or vv. From this post:
CBDF28DE-7BC1-4EAF-B6DD-48132A040946.jpeg
 

AndyJ

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Hello folks.

I thought I’d post some updates of my “leggy itoigawa” - I followed the advice I was given last year and the tree has responded well.

Will it be ok for me to start wiring pads now?

Many thanks,

Andy

0C79F2BC-389E-4A1E-938F-C10D88E05494.jpeg436A5F7E-73DF-4E4C-ACAB-DD31BB2BCAF5.jpeg38DACB7C-8ABF-4514-90B6-A9E334F2DF5A.jpeg682590C8-E2C8-4650-89BD-33299156B091.jpegBC1EE102-3454-4DA6-BE91-E357662389C0.jpeg
 

sorce

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What's your fert regimen like?

I wonder because in answering your question I think, yeah but Damn!, that's some unruly folaige!

This is going to make it rather hard, or rather, less fert and more compact growth will make it much easier.

So the more difficult answer may be no.

You might still have to deal with this legginess.

The trunk is too nice to have foalige too far away from it.

Sorce
 

AndyJ

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Thanks Sorce. Just applied a couple of rapeseed cakes in spring and replaced them every 6-8 weeks throughout the year. Supplemented with the odd seaweed feed and fish emulsion. I cut back the runners plus another 50% in spring as per @Brian Van Fleet suggestion.

Doing as you advised did encourage some more interior growth Brian but also produced some more juvenile foliage. Should I cut everything back again now? Or start wiring into pads?

Many thanks
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Thanks Sorce. Just applied a couple of rapeseed cakes in spring and replaced them every 6-8 weeks throughout the year. Supplemented with the odd seaweed feed and fish emulsion. I cut back the runners plus another 50% in spring as per @Brian Van Fleet suggestion.

Doing as you advised did encourage some more interior growth Brian but also produced some more juvenile foliage. Should I cut everything back again now? Or start wiring into pads?

Many thanks
This is one of those Itoigawa strains that don’t backbud well it seems. I have one too, and it is frustrating because it behaves like yours. It’s healthy, and grows strongly from the tips, but cutting it back produces some interior growth that remains juvenile for a year or more before it becomes something to work with. You could wire it now, but...

If it was mine, I would leave it alone until spring, and then cut it back and wire it just as the growing tips are starting to grow. Mine seems to backbud better in response to spring pruning rather than fall.
 

sorce

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This seems like an excellent subject for that Danu product from Peter Warren.

Show us if that stuff really works!

Do they make you clean the bottom of your shoes before international flights? No...oh yeah, it's stupid we can't get that stuff shipped here!

Sorce
 

Paradox

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This seems like an excellent subject for that Danu product from Peter Warren.

Show us if that stuff really works!

Do they make you clean the bottom of your shoes before international flights? No...oh yeah, it's stupid we can't get that stuff shipped here!

Sorce


One of my bonsai clubs had Pauline Muth come and do a workshop for us. She mentioned a study where they found that chemical fertilizers seem to make plants more susceptible to fungus. I have not been able to find it to read it but it is interesting for sure. I use organic myself and have good results with it so no need to change. The only time I use more chemical fertilizer is on my tropicals when they are inside during the winter because the organic is too smelly for inside the house!

@AndyJ I would follow Brian's advice. Hes got some very nice Shimpaku and knows what he is doing with them. In any case to wire this, when you do get to doing that, you will probably need to thin it out some because all that foliage is going to make wiring difficult. However the fact it has all that foliage is a good thing right now. It means its healthy and vigorous and you should have some good choices for making good compact pads.
 

bwaynef

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One of my bonsai clubs had Pauline Muth come and do a workshop for us. She mentioned a study where they found that chemical fertilizers seem to make plants more susceptible to fungus. I have not been able to find it to read it but it is interesting for sure.

There are lots of scientific papers that report the presence of mycorrhiza makes plants less susceptible to bad fungus, and not just bad fungus in the soil.
 

AndyJ

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This is one of those Itoigawa strains that don’t backbud well it seems. I have one too, and it is frustrating because it behaves like yours. It’s healthy, and grows strongly from the tips, but cutting it back produces some interior growth that remains juvenile for a year or more before it becomes something to work with. You could wire it now, but...

If it was mine, I would leave it alone until spring, and then cut it back and wire it just as the growing tips are starting to grow. Mine seems to backbud better in response to spring pruning rather than fall.

Thanks @Brian Van Fleet - So no pruning or wiring for the rest of this year? Does that apply to the runners that have grown out follow this springs trim? How far should I cut it back next spring? Do I reduce all foliage by 50%? Or would that be too much?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Thanks @Brian Van Fleet - So no pruning or wiring for the rest of this year? Does that apply to the runners that have grown out follow this springs trim? How far should I cut it back next spring? Do I reduce all foliage by 50%? Or would that be too much?
I would leave it alone until spring. Then, in the spring, go branch by branch and trim back runners, remove dead interior stuff, growth in the crotches of branches. Don’t remove more than 1/3 of the foliage. Each branch should look about like this when you’re finished:
A6368CBC-3050-4269-BCD7-1EF79C1FBEE3.jpeg
Notice how each tuft remaining is approximately alternating from side to side:
55244BD9-5DE1-4F7F-9913-4B787B740A54.jpeg
Then you can wire each primary branch, and those secondary tufts into pads:
BC7BF220-5DFE-4496-8C4D-B116FD3CFBE4.jpeg
Here is a post you can check out on trimming back a juniper, also an Itoigawa:
 
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AndyJ

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Brilliant! Thanks @Brian Van Fleet - so you remove foliage on the top of the branch and underneath the branch? And then remove alternate shoots along the branches length? I had it in my mind that you only removed foliage below.

I‘m going to bookmark the link you sent me. 👍 :)
 

Mayank

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Hey folks. I’ve read and reread this post a few times while I try and work out what I should be doing!! Couple of different opinions here and I’m nervous about doing something wrong.

Hopefully you can give me a thumbs up to say what I’m planning will / might be ok!

2019
1) Move tree to full sun
2) Continue plan of leaving Biogold in place and bi-weekly supplements of fish emulsion and seaweed until late September (I live in NW England and it starts getting cold by then)
3) Start applying Phosphate until end of November
4) Temporarily wire shoots up to face the sun (should I try and create pads at this stage?)
5) Cut off all juvenile spiky foliage

2020
6) In late spring, reduce all this year’s foliage by cutting back this years runners, plus another 50%. Leave interior growth coming from crotches
7) Wire all remaining growth to start forming pads
8) Feed well for the rest of the year

2021
9) Rinse and repeat above
10) If backbudding has occurred in the interior in 2020, select strong areas in interior and remove outer, weaker shoots

Will this program work?

Thanks all,

Andy
I just saw this thread so if this has been addressed please ignore me :)
I noticed that nobody commented on:
1) move tree to full Sun.
Was there a reason it wasn't in full sun at all times always? Perhaps this was the cause for the debate on whether or not the tree is healthy or weak?
 

AndyJ

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Hey Mayank. I think this was general guidance that Brian gave me. Tree is in full sun all the time.
 

sorce

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so you remove foliage on the top of the branch and underneath the branch?

I always say you shouldn't mindlessly perform this act.

If say, you have an overly thick branch to one side, you can twist the branch so that thick branch is "up"(removed), to favor a branch of the appropriate size that may have been growing on the top or bottom.

Of course, all the rest of the branches will also have made a quarter turn, which makes figuring a little harder, but doing a 180degree turn (another 1/4turn after that branch) brings everything back in line for left and right branches.

You can also use that 180 degree turn to put what may be a heavy branch moving across the trunk, to the outside.

The regularly taught "instructions", may be simplified for an easy understanding and application, maybe to save time if working many trees, because the outcome will work.
But where we have time to perfect our few trees, we should utilize further detail.

Sorce
 

bwaynef

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I'll never forget the importance of leaving top branches on junipers when doing regular cleanup. I had this notion cemented in my head after I was tasked with cleaning a tree/branch/whip and my teacher came back to check the work. I'd removed top branches he'd intended to use to fill out the pad and he told me I'd set the tree back by 6 months. (It may've been 3 now that I think about it. The point remains.) He said it in a way that was hardly condemning, but I remember how disappointed I was at missing something so simple ...that we'd even talked about. It wasn't exactly priceless material, so there's that consolation, but screwing up someone else' trees (and that someone is a person you respect enough to study under) is a great way to cement an idea in your head. Well, it was for me anyway.
 
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