How to develop/grow a baby sapling JBP into Niwaki? What are the correct Steps?

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Shohin
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Here's some questions/inquiries that's almost never taught in any videos or writings... 'Developing a baby sapling JBP'
Most readings, blogs, videos, lessons, etc., etc... are almost always about maintaining or refining an already old and mature, developed, JBP.

Besides my 2 old niwaki JBPs I bought, I also have 4 baby JBPs too, that are around 7yo now. They only have 1-2 tiers of branches so far (and also a few new tiny buds/branches back-budding along the trunk). When I received them, they were about 10-18" tall, and pencil thick at most.

I've already trunk chopped them last year above their first branch tiers (2 of them, also have a trunk bend, before their trunk chop, because they were very tall before the branches). I chopped them to start directional-pruning already of the trunk-line and develop a “kinked-trunk.” They seem healthy and vigorous this year, and now about Sharpie thick. I also reduced a few very vigorous lower-candles in late May (left a few new needles behind the trim/reduction) and also any close-by non-leader candles, because I wanted my leader to have most of the energy (I didn't reduce the leader candle at all).

My goal/visualization is to turn them into Niwaki, around 4-6’ tall, with proportional branches.

I noticed my 2 old niwaki JBPs I bought last year don’t have an early trunk-chop (like I am doing now) and seem like they were just left to free-grow until desired size/height (I’m not sure at all though) while the branches were trained horizontal during free-growing. They do have a trunk-chop though; but only high up, at the very top, before the crown, already 4’ above soil. I also noticed most garden niwaki I see at bonsai nurseries are like this - no trunk-chops until the very top and very straight (almost like a formal upright). And sometimes only a little ramification.

Anyways... are you supposed to just let the candles/branches, the trunk and the tree, free-grow until desired branch-length and tree-height? (while training branches horizontal). And then, start ramification after that, after it becomes into desired height and branch lengths? Or, do you start trunk-chopping and decandling for ramification early on? Again, this is for a 4-6' tall niwaki, not a small bonsai.

You don't decandle during development, correct? (to keep as much strength/foliage as it can get, and only decandle-ramify until refinement stages when developed in distant future, and until you reach visualized size, correct?)
And, you only decandle sometimes, the center terminal candle if you want the leader to re-direct for a "kinked-trunk,” and also maybe reduce any lower/close-by candles if they start competing with desired leader and to re-direct energy to desired leader, correct?
 

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JBP sapling #1
 

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my nellie

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Hello!
Here's some questions/inquiries that's almost never taught in any videos or writings... 'Developing a baby sapling JBP'
Most readings, blogs, videos, lessons, etc., etc... are almost always about maintaining or refining an already old and mature, developed, JBP.... ... ...
You can visit Jonas Dupuich @bonsaitonight For example look on pages 28, 32, 20, 19....... or Eric Schrader @phutu.com Of course it is about making a bonsai but perhaps some hints might help you.
 
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hemmy

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Anyways... are you supposed to just let the candles/branches, the trunk and the tree, free-grow until desired branch-length and tree-height? (while training branches horizontal). And then, start ramification after that, after it becomes into desired height and branch lengths? Or, do you start trunk-chopping and decandling for ramification early on? Again, this is for a 4-6' tall niwaki, not a small bonsai.

I have no experience with niwaki production, but let me take a mildly educated stab. Most of the ones I’ve seen at the Huntington Garden are not chopped low (or it is not recognizable) and tend to have less taper than the exaggerated kind needed for bonsai proportions.

I wouldn’t bother chopping low for direction and instead wire for direction (exaggerated curves because they grow out as it thickens for 6’ tall trees). Any low chop for taper is probably lost over the ground growing time. Your upper branching is probably where you can prune for taper, direction, and to balance ‘energy’ with the lower branches. Listen to the Mirai podcast below with Teleperion Farms, field growers of bonsai. They have a good discussion of their process for girth and backbudding. You want a lot of branches to chose from so let it grow strong for backbudding before you lose the 3rd year’s needles. Also be mindful of the number of branches on lower whirls for bulging. As Jonas from Bonsai Tonight does for his bonsai training, you will also have to retain lower branches for design but not let them get too weak or strong (by needle allocation and shoot pruning to redistribute ‘energy’). Although, I suspect there is not much wholesale decandling until a very late stage of at all, because the ground growing should give you plenty of buds for branching.

Hopefully someone with actual experience will point any wrong guesses on my part!

Podcast
https://soundcloud.com/asymmetry-podcast%2Ftelperion-farms-1
 

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Yeah… I noticed the 2 older niwaki I bought (not the 4 babies I posted in my OP), have very high trunk-chops (4’ up) and very very mild taper..prolly wasn’t even trunk chopped primarily for taper, but maybe for final styling size after developed and for sale. All the niwaki JBPs I’ve seen at the nursery I bought them from were similar - none or very high trunk chops and minimal taper (obvious, since it’s impossible to get exaggerated taper from a tall niwaki tree).

I’ve also been to 6 different cities in Japan and visited many proper gardens in each city. Their niwaki are on a completely different level than any niwaki nurseries I have seen in SoCal (Akita & House of Bonsai). So I cannot even comment or compare Japan gardens’ niwaki JBPs (which are probably 100s or 1000+ years old) with SoCal nursery JBPs one can buy/make.

Besides no or high trunk chops and minimal taper… another main difference I noticed b/n niwaki and bonsai, is they almost never use wire to train branches… they mostly use twine/rope/small-hose and little weights (like Xmas ornaments, but cement lol).

And, yet another big difference I noticed b/n the two, is in bonsai they usually practice leaving only 1 nice side-branch per node/whorl/bend (usually on a convex outer bend elbow)… but in almost all the niwaki I’ve seen (in both young US ones and ancient Japan ones), it’s common to leave many/multiple side-branches on the same old whorl/node (perhaps because the trees are much bigger and needs a lot of foliage to fill in space). My 2 older niwaki JBPs also have multiple side-branches coming out of some of the same node/whorl areas.
 

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After reading Phutu and BonsaiTonight... I think my biggest mistakes is trunk-chopping them too low (and too early); but more importantly, my curves/bends/kinked-trunk is much too small/tight for a 4-6' niwaki... because those bends/curves/kinks will just stay the same height/size forever and they don't really "magnify" in height and size, correct?
(ideally, I want the 1st/lower curves about 2' in height and about 1' wide...and progressively smaller the higher up the tree)

This has always been my biggest confusion to me (as there's almost no information out there in developing a large niwaki) - do bends/curves "magnify" in height and size as it ages (or stay same height forever)? Or, does growth basically only "stack" and elongate, so you must follow this stacking/elongation and follow your desired tall/high/large curves?

I think I will re-wire my trunk-lines/leads and straighten them as much as I can and try to follow a much taller/bigger future-visualized curve (around a 2' tall C-curve).
 

0soyoung

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Trees only grow at the tips. Away from the tips, stems only get thicker. The spaces between branches (internodes) does not change after the growing season in which they were created. So bends/kinks stay where they are and do not move. So you make the 1st/lower curves at 2' in height and it will forever be exactly there. The stems will get thicker over time, though.

Auxin, which stimulates elongation of new cells, tends to move to the underside of stems, causing them to thicken more underneath and to point upward (the weight of the wood and foliage goes against this tendency). This also means that curves in stems tend to become less sharp or smoother over time - in other words, curves will seem to straighten out to a degree.

"Niwaki" by Jake Hobson may have the assistance you are looking for.
 

Eric Schrader

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"Niwaki" by Jake Hobson may have the assistance you are looking for.

Second that book recommendation. You're not making bonsai, so don't use bonsai techniques. The low bends are fine as you have them.

BTW, the yellowing on the base of your needles means you're over-watering your trees. The roots will die from rot if that continues. Water them at longer intervals, if you are concerned about the top drying out, water very lightly to wet just the top inch of soil on alternate waterings.

Also, I would think carefully about whether JBP is the best species for what you are doing. For garden niwaki you may find that podocarpus or juniper gives a better end result. Check out Jake Hobson's book from your local library. I would use JBP, but keep in mind the maintenance on JBP is very time consuming on large niwaki. particularly decandling in summer, but also thinning and cutback in fall.
 

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Yeah... I already have that Niwaki book... it is basically all stuff I already knew from other videos/blogs, etc. Good book, but it isn't that detailed (like this subject for example.. about height/size of curves, elongation, thickening and smoothing over time, following a large curve line, horticulture stuff like auxin/carbs/root, etc.)
 

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BTW, the yellowing on the base of your needles means you're over-watering your trees. The roots will die from rot if that continues. Water them at longer intervals, if you are concerned about the top drying out, water very lightly to wet just the top inch of soil on alternate waterings.

Also, I would think carefully about whether JBP is the best species for what you are doing. For garden niwaki you may find that podocarpus or juniper gives a better end result. Check out Jake Hobson's book from your local library. I would use JBP, but keep in mind the maintenance on JBP is very time consuming on large niwaki. particularly decandling in summer, but also thinning and cutback in fall.

Ah, thanks! I didn't know that. I only water my trees twice a week. And it's in a very well draining soil with a lot of pumice. In big 7-15 gallon nursery pots though..so maybe they might hold too much water.

Yeah... I did momiage/needle-pluck on my 2 older niwaki JBPs last winter (as they do in Japan)... it took 6-8 hours each. A lot of work.

I have a fern podocarpus and re-styled.. not as nice as the Maki for niwaki, which is much more common for niwaki. But, it was already in the yard.

Yes, I have an old San Jose niwaki. I also have 11 recently successful cuttings from it I will train into niwaki as well.

I love JBP the most... so I will keep at them (6 total - 2 old mature ones, and these 4 babies)

I have a couple other old trees I've restyled into niwaki (4 eugenias, 1 lavendar star, 1 guava, 1 meyers lemon too) ...and also newer whips I just planted this year (2 ume and 1 persimmon)
 
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After learning all of this, I un-bent and straightened all of them out just now. I just thought the curves were much too tight/small for my visualization of a 4-6' niwaki (as the rest of the upper trunk would be more on the straight side in the future...like most niwaki I’ve seen).

Basically re-bent them to have a very gradual, large radius, mild bend, following a 2-3’ tall C bend for the first curve. Pics 1-3 are basically only a half C, that I will follow back into centerline when it grows more (basically 1/4 of a circle for now). Last JBP almost has a complete C.

Yes, much much straighter, boring and less movement now, but these straight’ish slight-curve trunk-lines actually match a lot closer to my other 2 old niwaki JBPs now (they’re about 5’ tall, 3” trunk), and also the ones I’ve seen at US niwaki nurseries and in Japan.
 

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My mistake of trunk-chopping and “kinking” the trunk at each whorl is actually from that Niwaki book I read last year, lol. Because he doesn’t mention specifics like how high/tall each bend/kink should be nor how a jbp grows. I think he just put in generic basic jbp/bonsai training technique info in his book just to fill in those pages and has never done it nor really knows anything about developing jbp at all.
I know it’s a basic bonsai technique though - directional pruning and trunk chops.
 
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CWTurner

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One thing I would suggest is to get them in the ground. They will grow much faster.
When they grow branches in whorls, cut off all but 1-2.
Then put YOUR styling into them over the years.
CW
 
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