How to get better at advanced design.

[tamakwe]

I've been doing bonsai for a long time, and I've gotten great at the horticultural and technical aspects. But advanced styling is still largely a mystery to me. I know all the basic rules and can style a decent tree, but I'm always impressed with what more advanced members can do with the mature wildcard trees. It goes beyond the simple formulas we all learned when we started. The choices they make about which branches to cut, bend and shape aren't usually obvious to me from the beginning, even though they always seem to be the right ones. A lot of times they start with material I might have rejected, only to finish with an amazing tree.

How are people in the West becoming such great experts without traditional Japanese apprenticeship? I don't think it comes down to experience alone, since I know people who are great at design with only five years in the hobby, and other who really struggle after twenty. Given that my design skills have started to plateau, what's the best way to improve and move into the "advanced" category?

 

[jomawa]

I think you are hedging into what I deem the true differnce between an artist or visionary and those who are great craftsmen. Take Michaelangelo's white block of marble that he brought David out of. I think in his case he could visualize David inside and he simply removed what was not David, (and yes I realize that may be an improper oversimplification). Not that I could ever pull it off, but, I as only a crftsman and not an artist, aplying rules of creativty and form and following drawn lines on the marble representing David's outline from every angle I remove with great trepidation any of the marble outside the lines, and can only "see" David once all the excess has been removed and he stands as as we see him. When I look at a pre bonsai tree all I see are a bunch of branches clustered on a truck. If I removed enough of the right branches (haven't done it yet) I can maybe come up with an apropriate bonsai. Others have the artistic ability to visualize the tree (to be) and simply "cut this off here ... , wire that and bend ... , lift that nebari to ... , add a 1/4" branch here ... , ... , ya see?" No I don't see. Let me know a few years from now when you're done so I can look at it and know what you were talking about, OK?. I believe if a person lacks vision, their "great" bonsai artistry will involve far greater effort and attention to rules and details to create the "same" tree.

 

[Cypress187]

I know how to get advanced designs, grow it fat and chop it low. No but really, i think my reason I'm getting hold back is because im too afraid to do bigger chops and pruning larger stuff.

 

[Tieball]

Don't let all the design rules weigh you down....to much. Understanding the rules has meant, to me anyway, not so much a strict requirement for a tree, but a way to see a natural tree emerging. There are certain growth patterns in trees....the rules explain it in words. Explore natural trees outdoors. Really look at them. You'll actually see most of the rules, however, as the tree ages it cares less about the rules and more about survival and showcasing its own character. Hmmmm.....just like us. Now you're thinking advanced design characteristics.

Some bonsai trees follow the design rules perfectly well. You can believe it is advanced. Every bend and cut is precisely following a pattern...sometimes just like every other bonsai tree...sometimes not so exciting...just rule based. An excellent tree design, however, it may lack the character of life. Be a maverick...take a look at nature's inspiration. Especially the old trees....the elders that the young bonsai aspire to be when they are older. Then, look at your tree stump.....and, well, just smile and laugh....laugh a lot. You have the horticultural experience, now think about what you and the tree want to portray...what emotion do you want to communicate....what has happened over time and how the tree responded. You'll have an enjoyable bonsai design experience. Advanced. You'll discover how the rules can help you with a foundation. You'll find yourself able to cut, trim, prune and bend really well because you'll present nature at its maturity in your trees. Confidence in design will build....it's takes time....and, we are all different about how much time it takes. Patience. I'm patient...and still working on it...and laughing a lot with some of my stumps.

Like the above reply example of the white block of marble and Michaelangelo, you will gain the confidence to see the tree in the forest. Strip away the forest. Find. There's a tree that communicates a story. It's there for your discovery.

Design inspiration.....tree structures beneath the leaves. Here's a good website just to explore and examine natural tree trunks any time of the day or night. There are many websites...this is just one...it presents nature's maturity...and other stuff. http://www.123rf.com/search.php?wor...pts=&itemsperpage=100&sti=n1x082795uyaz7oi3h|

 

[Dalmat]

 

[Anthony]

Learn to draw well, and learn all you can about composition.
Make a real effort to study mature / old, even young trees, with drawings
Look at Chinese ink paintings, and draw the trees.

The act of drawing builds your visual vocabulary and also your memory.

Spend time with seeds and seedlings ------ ground growing - master trunk and root.
Then advance to training in a pot.

The secret is in the drawing.
Laters.
Khaimraj

 

[tamakwe]

Learn to draw well, and learn all you can about composition.
Make a real effort to study mature / old, even young trees, with drawings
Look at Chinese ink paintings, and draw the trees.

The act of drawing builds your visual vocabulary and also your memory.

Spend time with seeds and seedlings ------ ground growing - master trunk and root.
Then advance to training in a pot.

The secret is in the drawing.
Laters.
Khaimraj

It's funny you mention ink paintings. One of the ABS directors I met years ago recommended I look at the Manual of the Mustard Seed Garden. It's a Qing Chinese manual for landscape painting that was used to train artists in Edo Period Japan. John Naka wrote that most bonsai styles and the words used to describe them come from this book.

 

[Cadillactaste]

May I suggest this book...it touches on some great topics and is easy to understand. (This is his second print revised...much larger,hardcover with more information and pictures to go along with it.)

http://www.stonelantern.com/Principles_of_Bonsai_Tree_Design_p/b1prin.htm

Hint of what is inside...

 

[Smoke]

May I suggest this book...it touches on some great topics and is easy to understand. (This is his second print revised...much larger,hardcover with more information and pictures to go along with it.)

http://www.stonelantern.com/Principles_of_Bonsai_Tree_Design_p/b1prin.htm

Hint of what is inside...
View attachment 95507

Written by who?
Edit...sorry guess I could have clicked on the link.....Dave DeGroot.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Written by who?
Edit...sorry guess I could have clicked on the link.....Dave DeGroot.

Sorry Al, guess I could have listed author name. Was in the middle of something and did a brief post. Yes,Dave DeGroot. Awesome book!

 

[MichaelS]

Learn to draw well, and learn all you can about composition.
Make a real effort to study mature / old, even young trees, with drawings
Look at Chinese ink paintings, and draw the trees.

The act of drawing builds your visual vocabulary and also your memory.

Spend time with seeds and seedlings ------ ground growing - master trunk and root.
Then advance to training in a pot.

The secret is in the drawing.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Excellent post and so very true! Drawing gives you direction. Each time you work on the tree you can go back to your sketch of the design to keep you on track. It is especially helpful if you want to get into some more abstract or out of the ordinary designs which are unique in their form. Also agree with needing to master everything including the formation of good basic structure (roots and trunk). Learn to recognize flaws and how to correct them however long it takes and/or reject inferior material. Don't settle for ''good enough''
Planning today is the key to achieving your vision in the future and drawing is a great planning tool!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Excellent post and so very true! Drawing gives you direction. Each time you work on the tree you can go back to your sketch of the design to keep you on track. It is especially helpful if you want to get into some more abstract or out of the ordinary designs which are unique in their form. Also agree with needing to master everything including the formation of good basic structure (roots and trunk). Learn to recognize flaws and how to correct them however long it takes and/or reject inferior material. Don't settle for ''good enough''
Planning today is the key to achieving your vision in the future and drawing is a great planning tool!

From Bonsai Techniques I and II by John Naka I have gotten most of what I know of the "rules". Knowing rules will help develop a technically correct and likely soulless "cookie cutter" tree. Master Naka also suggested looking at wild trees as inspiration which is absolutely great and needed advice. When can "see" or visualize how to style individual tree "as" individual maybe even when not looking at the tree that seems essence of answer to "advanced" question. Most need Muse to help with trees. Certainly know self has intermittent inspiration or fleeting Muse but when is present is like having wings to "know" what is done is right thing. As for self this one has no talent or skill to draw any 3D picture because flat is unlike tree. As to flaws in tree sometimes must work around or even will cause complete different tree design. If must always have "flawless" tree to start with then suggest will always have technically perfect and soulless trees=boring cookie cutter trees.

 

[just.wing.it]

Some people just dont have a single artistic bone in their body.
The "artistic eye" is usually something individuals are born with, in my experience.
That's why in art class, back in grade school, some kids have good drawings and some kids suck so bad that they get frustrated with it.
I bet someone could learn it though, learn how to gain an artist's eye...if one really wanted to.

 

[Anthony]

Just.Wing.It,

all humans have the ability to create, it is a matter of how you think. Some folk trap their minds from very young, put up
walls and limits or have others do it to them.

Some don't like to read and so the mind/imagination starves.

Some teachers have no real patience, some parents are the same, and so the child suffers.
All the time that should have been spent as a child exploring, killed.
Of course the teenager/adult will feel over whelmed , no time .

At an older age, with normal adult responsibilities, no time, no time to explore, walled in.

My nephew Nick had this situation thrust on him due to CHILDISH parents.
No choices allowed, just bullied psychologically.
He left home and came down to my side, his choice.

He has his O'Levels, distinctions, and is doing his A'levels, has drawn his first house and it is to be built.[ Wants to be
an Architect ] not only drew the structure, he made a cardboard mock up and is painting it as well.
Draws and paints, makes clay pots, reads Classic Literature and grows vegetables, has three dogs he raised and walks.
Smiles a lot,------------ is cheerful ------------- used to sleep all of the time.
Awakens and makes bread.
A ball of energy. Helped Anthony with the Solar powering of my home, came up with his own ideas, Science whiz.
Recently turned 19.

Just needed time, time to just do / explore and not have folk forcing him to get a job.

Potawatomi13,

try clay or plastercene shapes for 3d. The idea is to create your idea of a tree, would not end up as a cookie cutter.
Laters.
Khaimraj

 

[thumblessprimate1]

That (DeGroot) is one of the next books I'll purchase, thanks to @MACH5 for referring it to me last year. Nothing like a great book even in this day.

 

[sorce]

@Anthony .....Khai.
Hell yes to all that!
If there is a wall, I let my kids climb it!
Fences, hills, trees, climb it.

If there's a puddle, splash in it.

Life's too short!

My kids were playing with clay the other day....so I made a tree!
_________

Following the rules doesn't make a cookie cutter tree.

You can follow the rules and make excellently real trees.

The rules help you create a real looking tree.
How you style it is up to you.
_____

Advanced Styling?

You gotta know 2 things.
What's gonna grow.....
And what's gotta go.

The horticultural aspect teaches that, and the timing, which is more important.

Given that my design skills have started to plateau, what's the best way to improve and move into the "advanced" category?

Don't picture yourself on a plateau.
Picture yourself still climbing the mountain.
Look back down that mountain at the baddest tree you see....and style a tree like that!

Sorce

 

[Geo]

Khaimraj

Great to see you posting here too!

 

[just.wing.it]

I agree, it all starts with the parents. Of course.
I also think that it (artistic imagination) can be brought out of anyone.
It's just natural for some, that's all I was saying.

 

[petegreg]

That (DeGroot) is one of the next books I'll purchase, thanks to @MACH5 for referring it to me last year. Nothing like a great book even in this day.

I can only recommend his book. And here is something quite similar for free:
http://andyrutledge.com/book/

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Thanks, Peter. That's a good Website too. I've seen it before, but good to keep coming back to it.