How to have a chance to win the challenge and tremendously improve your bonsai skills

[Walter Pall]

How you could have had a big chance at the 'instant bonsai contest' and really learned a lot:

I have read the epic thread about new rules and had a lot of fun. It really reminds me of the good old days on bonsai talk, bonsai nut and other forums. A man called Will Heath fighting the world like fighting windmills and getting crucified while hes is doing it. Not always, but sometimes Will would have said something that I had mentioned in his own words and get crucified for it. Why not me? I am still not so sure.

Anyway - lots of truth in that thread.

Now in my words:

If you really want to have a chance at such a challenge and want to use this event to make a big leap in you bonsai career do the following.

Go and find a nursery that sells a lot of possible bonsai material for cheap. Not that you normally would consider this king of material for yourself. It's just to learn and prove a point. Then you find the stack where there are lots of say boxwoods for US$ 10.- . You spend 200 and get twenty. If you are smart you talk the owner into 25 for 200.

You make individual photographs of each against a good background.
Then you spend a whole weekend working on tree after tree. In the beginning you will not have much of a clue how to start and how to end. Well, just try. You are not ruining an awful lot. Then you find after three trees that it gets easier to make decisions. You also find that you should do much more wiring than you had thought. And you find that the 'good' trees are boring because you get out of them just what you saw anyway and it's cookie cutter bonsai.
You might have done three trees on the first weekend.

Then you wait for the next weekend. You do the same thing again, only to find that you are much quicker in making decisions and much quicker in cutting and wiring. Your results are better and you really start liking at least one of the trees. You will do five that weekend.

Then on the third weekend you go into a styling rave. You do ten trees over the weekend. It only takes you an hour to do one. A couple are the best of the whole lot and you feel like becoming an artist.

Then on the fourth weekend you line up all twenty trees. You look at the progress you made. You go back to the first ones and correct a lot of your work. You put on a lot more wire than you had though in the beginning. You bend them to more interesting shapes. You will see what kind of sad bonsai you have produced in the beginning.

When you are done judging your own trees you sort out the three best ones and make the best possible photograph of them. You might also on the way learn how to make better bonsai pictures.

Then you wait for a couple of days. You choose the final one which is your best result and submit it to the box challenge. And then see how you are doing.

You may have a very good chance to even win your class. But that's not the main result. It is the fact that this silly contest had made you learning in a serious way. This will be valuable for the rest of your bonsai careerer.

This is the method how some of our youngsters in Europe prepare themselves for the New Talent Contests.

Good thing in the end: if you are smart you make pictures of all trees, offer them on e-bay and sell them from 20 to 100 there, making a good profit on the purchase price.

Or you do as some of our youngsters do. You go to a bonsai outfit and work on the cheap bonsai stuff for free. The owner will be happy that you have increased the value of his crap and you are happy to have had so much material to choose from for free.

 

[A Random User]

Thanks Walter... I understand and agree that perhaps I could of worded what I was saying a lot better!
But, really in the end I was not seeking to offend anyone with what I was saying... I wish everyone the best, and was merely
trying to push everyone to be better. That is all!

 

[M. Frary]

.

Thanks Walter... I understand and agree that perhaps I could of worded what I was saying a lot better!
But, really in the end I was not seeking to offend anyone with what I was saying... I wish everyone the best, and was merely
trying to push everyone to be better. That is all!

I think they know this too Stacy. It's just the way you phrase things at times.
You and Walter said things that need to be said,just in different ways.

 

[MaverickLancer]

As a newbie bonsai enthusiast, I wanted to thank you, Walter. I'm in that awkward stage where I'm really trying to find out what works and what doesn't. I was thinking of just focusing on the twos projects I have now, but I really like the idea of working on a series of similar material to track progress. I may be making a big trip to the local nursery in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I tried to go that route...taking photos of the tree I worked then was going to submit it at a later point. I sadly forgot to take an important photo. (The above angle shot before placing mine in a bonsai pot) By not having that shot...I disqualified myself from the get go. Though I didn't purchase a lot of material. Nurseries around my parts were just opening doors. And stock they had was very limited to our price point or material. But I was happy with my purchase. I'm even thrilled with my tree.

My out of the box contest thought process...was to be a raft project. But, I could not find suitable material which had me a bit disheartened. For I wanted to knock ones socks off. But the right material was not to be found. I was not settling on something I wouldn't be proud to later have in my collection.

I took offense to the thread in question...seen red actually. Not by any of his "rules" but by the way he stated he was going to critique ones "excuses". That in my minds eye...sounds belittling. As for his rules...honestly, they were lost on me from that point on.

I do appreciate your thread Mr.Pall,as well as your time taken to judge and critique the material used...the outlook of working several and choosing the best from the lot that you mentioned above food for thought. Though I only worked as I said...the one. I had planned on submitting my photos at a later date still in the time frame set for the contest. Had I not botched things up...you would have found yourself with one more contestant.

 

[Walter Pall]

It is a bit like sports or playing music or any other 'real' art. Practice and talent makes the master. Do you think playing Jingle Bells once a year at Christmas makes you a piano player? Or do the real good ones play EVERY day several hours? And they are even then still nobodies.

Have you ever wondered why some people create one good bonsai after the other while most are struggling to get even one? Some have not a bit more practice but several hundred times more practice. No wonder they are better.

So I extend my 'rules':
It`s not only about the skill to find the best possible material. It's mainly about practice - much more practice that you ever thought.

For many that is too much. They were thinking that bonsai is fun, an enjoyable hobby. And here I am telling you that it is work, tedious, dirty work - a lot of it. Well, some like that work, like wiring, weeding, cutting etc..

Another 'rule':

Yo should learn to like the common bonsai work.

Why? Well, if you want to run a marathon you better love working out. If you don't lie to sweat, find another sport.

So we are back to the other tread. Don't complain and find excuses - just work - a lot - and you will succeed. If you ever had some talent. You will find out at one point.

 

[Paulpash]

Walter have you ever kept (or posted) your first attempts? The degree of tact is often proportional to remembering where you were 'once', not where you are now. I think in general European folk often speak much more candidly than Americans and I honestly prefer this approach. 'Nice tree' isn't quality feedback to a beginner. As you get better expect the degree of analysis to get harsher so if you're looking to get exhibition quality trees your skin had better get thicker pretty fast.

I think Stacy's post is borne out of frustration and a failure to relate to those people content to "pootle" along of which I'd say makes up a high proportion of those doing bonsai. There's room for everyone to enjoy it at their own pace AS LONG AS THEY DON'T EVER WHINE ABOUT THE ROOT CAUSE. Walter's suggestion to go intensive isn't for everyone - family, work, money, effort, dedication and desire to improve often get in the way but if you want to be outstanding it ain't rocket science that you'll have to invest in order to get good at styling. The serious will invest hours learning how to wire and style; the "pootlers" will invest hours looking at their trees and smiling; the "why are my trees / skills still crap" brigade will probably come on here and post

 

[Walter Pall]

Marie,

since you ask, here the tree that I work the longest with. A Hibiscus that I started as a cutting in 1978 (!). First attempts and now. At that time nobody told me what to do. I had no clue where to go and how. I tried , tried and tried again. I learned to like bonsai work, to wire and I figured out how to improve my trees. I have done this probably ten thousand times by now. This is why I know how that happens.

BTW, I have started with absolutely lousy material. Now don't say 'well, see, one can make a good tree eventually of everything'. Say 'what would this look like if he had started with really good material right away?'.

It was an important part of the learning process, however. I want to shorten this for my students. It does not take 37 years nowadays to get this, it only takes five years if you follow my advice.

 

[Eric Group]

Marie,

since you ask, here the tree that I work the longest with. A Hibiscus that I started as a cutting in 1978 (!). First attempts and now. At that time nobody told me what to do. I had no clue where to go and how. I tried , tried and tried again. I learned to like bonsai work, to wire and I figured out how to improve my trees. I have done this probably ten thousand times by now. This is why I know how that happens.

BTW, I have started with absolutely lousy material. Now don't say 'well, see, one can make a good tree eventually of everything'. Say 'what would this look like if he had started with really good material right away?'.

View attachment 74673 View attachment 74674 View attachment 74675 It was an important part of the learning process, however. I want to shorten this for my students. It does not take 37 years nowadays to get this, it only takes five years if you follow my advice.





View attachment 74671 View attachment 74672

So, from a FEELING stand point- which trees do you like better? The ones you have been working on for 30+ Years or the ones you buy for thousands of dollars that make great trees after 1 season of work? IOW, do you feel a stronger connection to this Hibiscus compared to maybe one of those Maples you posted for Smoke's Maple challenge? Just curious I guess.

I know it would be different for a professional like yourself compared to those of I who do to his as little more than a hobby (a consuming hobby though it may be!)...

 

[Eric Group]

Thanks Walter... I understand and agree that perhaps I could of worded what I was saying a lot better!
But, really in the end I was not seeking to offend anyone with what I was saying... I wish everyone the best, and was merely
trying to push everyone to be better. That is all!

Really!? Where was that admission after three pages of noise in the new rule thread? LMAO

 

[coh]

Yeah, see how important it is to phrase your message in a way that doesn't insult your audience (or make them feel insulted)?

 

[Paradox]

Walter,

I sincerely appreciate your comments here and in the BSC challenge critiques and you coming back to teach us newer people. Your comments are honest but they dont belittle and degrade the reader. This is the sort of objective criticism needed when trying to teach.

Thank you.

 

[Walter Pall]

Eric,

my heart is much closer to the world class trees. The history trees are more for remembering and my wife got so used to this hibiscus. It has become her pet. That's the last one I can sell acoording to her.

 

[Eric Group]

Eric,

my heart is much closer to the world class trees. The history trees are more for remembering and my wife got so used to this hibiscus. It has become her pet. That's the last one I can sell acoording to her.

I saw you blog about this one once, with the pics of it sitting behind your couch I think... That is a great story and it is so cool how supportive your wife is of your art! Mine does a very admirable job of tolerating my obsession but short of liking the blooms on some azaleas of mine.. She wouldn't much mind if I sold all of them I think! Lol

 

[GrimLore]

That's the last one I can sell acoording to her.

As long as she waters all of your plants you had better pay attention Nice story by the way and yet another beautiful plant!

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Walter have you ever kept (or posted) your first attempts? The degree of tact is often proportional to remembering where you were 'once', not where you are now. I think in general European folk often speak much more candidly than Americans and I honestly prefer this approach. 'Nice tree' isn't quality feedback to a beginner. As you get better expect the degree of analysis to get harsher so if you're looking to get exhibition quality trees your skin had better get thicker pretty fast.

I think Stacy's post is borne out of frustration and a failure to relate to those people content to "pootle" along of which I'd say makes up a high proportion of those doing bonsai. There's room for everyone to enjoy it at their own pace AS LONG AS THEY DON'T EVER WHINE ABOUT THE ROOT CAUSE. Walter's suggestion to go intensive isn't for everyone - family, work, money, effort, dedication and desire to improve often get in the way but if you want to be outstanding it ain't rocket science that you'll have to invest in order to get good at styling. The serious will invest hours learning how to wire and style; the "pootlers" will invest hours looking at their trees and smiling; the "why are my trees / skills still crap" brigade will probably come on here and post

Thanks Marie for this comment. In the previous thread that got this all rolling I mentioned that I understood that there are a lot of folks who are just content with the way they are doing bonsai. For alot of folks I know this is just a hobby and they are just having fun with it and that's totally cool. I am glad they are doing it!

Where my personal frustration lied more with is advice I see given time after time again both here on this forum as well as in the clubs where I was demonstrating, of the train of thought that in order to advance and become good at bonsai you need to get the best material possible and begin to learn.

For me I think, as I said that in the other thread, that this is true, but I feel only once folks have mastered alot of the basic fundamentals. What I personally am seeing is that a good majority have not. So, what I see is alot of folks buying nice material to learn on, and sadly making mistakes on material they have paid alot of money for. Which, I think is sad. Now, this would be fine if they just did this on their own... but, this is being suggested as this is the best way to learn. I don't think it is... I have been mentioning this for some time now on site, and have taken all kinds of flack for it time and time again, because I am telling others to do what is going against the common thought of what everyone else is telling them to do.

But, the proof is in the pudding... if one was to look at how far I have progressed in the amount of time that I have, that one would see that it works! You really gotta put the time in and just constantly do, if you want to progress, there is no myth about this. And one cannot constantly do on one's good trees, unless one has hundreds of them, or you will kill them off!

So, you have a train of thought that tells folks not to work on crap, yet not to work on their good trees all the time or you will kill them. So, what are we telling folks to do? To work on trees for a couple of months out of the year, and for the rest of the time take a vacation. How, are they suppose to progress on vacation?

Obviously, this question is not directed at you Marie, just at the logic of the teaching process. When I left my demos I felt that the whole teaching process was really in actuality, letting people down.

I've offered up my 2 cents and I am trough with this whole conversation. I will just keep on keeping on! Hey, Walter you are always welcome down in my neck of the woods and the folks down here in Sunny Florida would love to have you, if you ever make your way!

 

[Smoke]

How you could have had a big chance at the 'instant bonsai contest' and really learned a lot:

I have read the epic thread about new rules and had a lot of fun. It really reminds me of the good old days on bonsai talk, bonsai nut and other forums. A man called Will Heath fighting the world like fighting windmills and getting crucified while hes is doing it. Not always, but sometimes Will would have said something that I had mentioned in his own words and get crucified for it. Why not me? I am still not so sure.

Anyway - lots of truth in that thread.

Now in my words:

If you really want to have a chance at such a challenge and want to use this event to make a big leap in you bonsai career do the following.

Go and find a nursery that sells a lot of possible bonsai material for cheap. Not that you normally would consider this king of material for yourself. It's just to learn and prove a point. Then you find the stack where there are lots of say boxwoods for US$ 10.- . You spend 200 and get twenty. If you are smart you talk the owner into 25 for 200.

You make individual photographs of each against a good background.
Then you spend a whole weekend working on tree after tree. In the beginning you will not have much of a clue how to start and how to end. Well, just try. You are not ruining an awful lot. Then you find after three trees that it gets easier to make decisions. You also find that you should do much more wiring than you had thought. And you find that the 'good' trees are boring because you get out of them just what you saw anyway and it's cookie cutter bonsai.
You might have done three trees on the first weekend.

Then you wait for the next weekend. You do the same thing again, only to find that you are much quicker in making decisions and much quicker in cutting and wiring. Your results are better and you really start liking at least one of the trees. You will do five that weekend.

Then on the third weekend you go into a styling rave. You do ten trees over the weekend. It only takes you an hour to do one. A couple are the best of the whole lot and you feel like becoming an artist.

Then on the fourth weekend you line up all twenty trees. You look at the progress you made. You go back to the first ones and correct a lot of your work. You put on a lot more wire than you had though in the beginning. You bend them to more interesting shapes. You will see what kind of sad bonsai you have produced in the beginning.

When you are done judging your own trees you sort out the three best ones and make the best possible photograph of them. You might also on the way learn how to make better bonsai pictures.

Then you wait for a couple of days. You choose the final one which is your best result and submit it to the box challenge. And then see how you are doing.

You may have a very good chance to even win your class. But that's not the main result. It is the fact that this silly contest had made you learning in a serious way. This will be valuable for the rest of your bonsai careerer.

This is the method how some of our youngsters in Europe prepare themselves for the New Talent Contests.

Good thing in the end: if you are smart you make pictures of all trees, offer them on e-bay and sell them from 20 to 100 there, making a good profit on the purchase price.

Or you do as some of our youngsters do. You go to a bonsai outfit and work on the cheap bonsai stuff for free. The owner will be happy that you have increased the value of his crap and you are happy to have had so much material to choose from for free.

Observance

 

[Walter Pall]

observance???? what exactly do you mean? maybe my English is not good enough.

 

[Smoke]

observance???? what exactly do you mean? maybe my English is not good enough.

On my quote you have to "click quote to expand". My observance is in red.

 

[michaelj]

Then you wait for a couple of days. You choose the final one which is your best result and submit it to the box challenge. And then see how you are doing.

You may have a very good chance to even win your class. But that's not the main result. It is the fact that this silly contest had made you learning in a serious way. This will be valuable for the rest of your bonsai career.

That is good advice, but it wouldn't have worked for this challenge. We had to decide the tree and post it within 48 hours. I had ten decent firethorns to choose from at the store, but I couldn't buy them all and go home and work on them for a couple of weekends and then pick the one I was happiest with. We only had two days to post. Although now you have me kicking myself in the butt for not just grabbing the five I liked best to see what I could do with them.