How to properly measure trunk and nebari?

[Poink88]

Until now, I am not sure how to really measure trunk and nebari on bonsai.

On real trees, I am taught to take trunk measurement (diameter) at breast height (or about 4-5 feet off the ground). We usually take the circumference then divide by 3 (should be pi=3.1416 but rounded 3 is good enough).

In bonsai, since it is miniature, the measurement point/height is elusive. If the trunk is a straight one, no problem, but how do you handle sumo which is almost like a pyramid? Compound that with the confusing transition/boundary between trunk & nebari (esp. flared ones).

I see "wild" claims about size (no I am not talking about male endowment though I hear/read those too LOL) especially online vendors. Some here (me included) may be providing false claims as well. Not to deceive, but because we do not know any better.

One idea that I read (can't recall where and when) is to take it where the diameter of the trunk is equal to the height from the soil level. Of course this method won't work on exposed root, etc. Thoughts on this?

I know this is just technical and not that important but curious mind wants to know if such a guideline exists.

Thank you.

 

[thams]

I know it varies from tree to tree, but I think trunk measurements would be less confusing if people measured its width at the first branch and specified this. That way it doesn't make a difference whether the tree is a sumo or a tall slender tree.

Really I think it comes down to common sense. If someone tells me that the nebari "fills the pot" but I can only see 2/3 of the pot filled with roots that are easily visible, then I call BS. I shouldn't have to be 3 inches from the tree to spot what I consider to be the true nebari. In other words, you shouldn't count tiny exposed roots as the nebari.

 

[DougB]

Interesting question and the responses should be even more interesting. Something to ponder during another unusual southern snow, rain, sleet, freezing rain couple of days.

 

[GrimLore]

This is going to turn into a "how long does a tree live" thread Best I figure is there is no set rule in Bonsai and therefore you see trees displayed along a scale.

Grimmy

 

[coh]

If you're taking photos (for personal use or for selling), just put a ruler near the tree so people can judge for themselves. If I'm taking notes for my own use, or posting on a forum, I try to remember to state where the measurement is taken. Something like "trunk diameter 2" at first branch", or "diameter 2" above root flare". Granted "above root flare" is not a very specific term...

 

[Dav4]

As others have said, there isn't any standardized method for recording these parameters for bonsai. I've always considered the width of the nebari to be the widest point between roots as they emanate from the ground and move toward the trunk. For the trunk, the measurement would be taken just above the nebari, basically the collar of the trunk.

 

[nathanbs]

As others have said, there isn't any standardized method for recording these parameters for bonsai. I've always considered the width of the nebari to be the widest point between roots as they emanate from the ground and move toward the trunk. For the trunk, the measurement would be taken just above the nebari, basically the collar of the trunk.

i agree with this 110%. Trunk diameter at first branch makes no sense to me as its about as pointless as how many leaves on the tree in determining the diameter of the base of the trunk which is what everyone wants to know. As others mentioned a ruler placed on the surface of the soil next to the trunk or a soda can give good perspective.

 

[Eric Group]

It seems when listing trees for sale in a retail setting, people most often measure the nebari at it's widest point and give an idea of what the trunk is somewhere around the collar, just above the roots. This seems to cover all bases... Again, as stated previously, you are covering yourself well if you simply place a ruler on the soil beside the tree...

 

[coh]

i agree with this 110%. Trunk diameter at first branch makes no sense to me as its about as pointless as how many leaves on the tree in determining the diameter of the base of the trunk which is what everyone wants to know. As others mentioned a ruler placed on the surface of the soil next to the trunk or a soda can give good perspective.

True if you have no other context. But, for example - if you post a photo of the tree and tell people the trunk diameter is X at the first branch, they can use a ruler to get the other dimensions. In some ways this is better than a generic statement of trunk thickness that leaves the viewer uncertain where the measurement was taken. On some trees it's pretty difficult to determine where the roots end and the trunk begins, and the measurement can be quite different depending on where you take it.

Chris

 

[jk_lewis]

There's no "official" WHERE. Just tell people whether you measured nebari at ground level (where it should be measured, IMO) an inch above, etc. or trunk 6 inches above ground etc.

 

[Don Blackmond]

I measure the surface root width as nebari. I measure the base as the solid wood at soil level. I measure the trunk just above the base, and if I measure the trunk anywhere else I state where I am measuring it.

If you want scientific accuracy then use a caliper and specify height above the soil and which face is measured.

 

[nathanbs]

True if you have no other context. But, for example - if you post a photo of the tree and tell people the trunk diameter is X at the first branch, they can use a ruler to get the other dimensions. In some ways this is better than a generic statement of trunk thickness that leaves the viewer uncertain where the measurement was taken. On some trees it's pretty difficult to determine where the roots end and the trunk begins, and the measurement can be quite different depending on where you take it.

Chris

how does this work if the tree is in prebonsai form and you cannot see where the first branch exits the trunk, or where any branches exit for that matter?

 

[twisted trees]

I suppose it depends on who you are trying to fool. It is what it is no matter how you measure it. I think you like the tree or you don't. If the trunk diameter is 1/4" less than you think it should be and you hate the tree you missed the point. A rose by any other measurement would smell just as sweet.

 

[Nomiyama]

I measure the nebari or visible roots on the soil surface. I also measure 2" up from the base of the tree from left to right for the base. If people are buying they also may want to know the size at the first branch, total height in inches and the width of the tree. If you are selling and don't have a ruler or just don't have the time to measure a good rule of thumb is a universal item like a soda can or pack of cigarettes. A soda can will be the same size in California as it is here in Maryland. The buyer can gauge trunk and height knowing roughly a can is 2.5" to 3" wide and about 5" tall. Hope that helps.

 

[Poink88]

I suppose it depends on who you are trying to fool. It is what it is no matter how you measure it. I think you like the tree or you don't. If the trunk diameter is 1/4" less than you think it should be and you hate the tree you missed the point. A rose by any other measurement would smell just as sweet.

Really? Where did this come from?

 

[Poink88]

Thanks guys. I guess there is no guideline then.

I've done all of the recommendations already...i.e. use soda can, ruler, etc. for scale but just wondering, not just for me but for others as well.

BTW, I am not planning on selling either...not yet at least.

Thanks again!

 

[Don Blackmond]

BTW, I am not planning on selling either...not yet at least.

I thought you were selling elms on ebay?

 

[Poink88]

I thought you were selling elms on ebay?

Me? Nope...if you are talking about the link I provided on another thread...that was just to show the price difference. The asking price on those are extremely high IMHO and will most likely not sell.

This? I just noticed a typo...I should have said..."seller is local TO me"

Besides those are supposed to be collected in Dallas back in 1997. I started bonsai on 2011, can't be me.

Just came back from San Gabriel Nursery today and was overwhelmed with their pre-bonsai selection. I don't know how many elms they had in 5 gallon pots - easily 100. They had Wing Elms, Cork Elms, Caitlin Elms, and Seiju Elms, all for about $150 (5 gallon) or $70 (2 gallon). Here is an example of a 5 gallon tree:

In contrast, check these out. Seller is local me.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item...tern&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=cedar+elm&_sop=3

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I particularly enjoy measurements quantified in circumference, but not labeled as such...
5" trunk on this:

 

[coh]

how does this work if the tree is in prebonsai form and you cannot see where the first branch exits the trunk, or where any branches exit for that matter?

Obviously you could only use this measurement technique when the branch in question is clearly visible. Does everything have to be spelled out, or are you just in the mood to argue?